Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
I'm glad I'm not seeing the other end of this convo, but I can imagine.
Why do some feminists hate transgender people?
- Thread starter D'wards
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Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
actually, I think there's at least one on here. Luckily I can't see what she's saying.
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wobbly
there's some interesting parallels with some of the societies that have taken on a siege mentality.
Trans women would have been arrested or beaten up if they went out in public only a few decades ago. Nowadays this lack of privilege is reflected in the stats on suicides, violence, economic status, wherever you look, trans women, in their current lived experiences, are not privileged compared to cis women, to suggest they are, in the face of overwhelming evidence, just looks like another prejudicial myth - and there is never any shortage of those when trying to justify bigotry. It might be argued that trans-women are men, who choose this oppression, the same argument used to be made against gays and lesbians who were believed to choose their sexual identity against god and nature.
Power relations do of course come in to it, but it is not uncommon for a marginalised group to turn on a group which has less power than them justified with a myth that they have more - gays and lesbians were often presented as decadent middle class elites in the tabloid press with the aim of exploiting this phenomena.
Athos
Well-Known Member
That's because you (and I) don't see trans women as men. For those who have a different definition of 'woman' the question of privilege remains a live one.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yeah, always the best way to engage in meaningful discussion, by putting your fingers in your ears, and responding to what you imagine (or hope) the other person is saying.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
it doesn't have to be hateful. The arguments themselves can send me into a spiral of depression. I've been warned not to let myself think too much about them. I understand them inside and backwards though, and the implications about me that arise from such arguments. I feel my very existence disproves TERF arguments but until science catches us up or the TERFs fade into history and people learn to just listen to us, trans women will need to protect ourselves psychologically.
Athos
Well-Known Member
And, more importantly, considers trans women to be women. And has said so here, at length!
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Except we don't choose. Most of us try to choose otherwise and can't. And even before or without transitioning we still experience prejudice. I've been bullied from childhood and into adulthood for being trans, a long time before I came out. And all the lost opposrtunities from not being able to identify as male and not being allowed to be female. To put if mildly being trans has ruined my life! And it does that whether you transtion or not! At least now I'm happy!
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
OK - I can't see and I don't know Thora.
sorry, I meant that is the argument a terf might make, an argument which was also used against gay people and which is bullshit
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Athos isn't the only person I've got on ignore for supporting the TERF line. He may well be male but he was using TERF arguments and decided at one point just to disregard anything I said.
Athos
Well-Known Member
You don't have to believe that trans women choose oppression to hold to a definition of women that excludes them.
I've heard immigrants get free cars and houses from the Jobcentre - do you take that argument seriously?
Athos
Well-Known Member
This is complete bullshit. Just becasue I can conceive of (if not subscribe to) an alternate view doesn't mean I have disregarded anything.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
No. When up against such 'arguments', I believe in trying to undderstand what's at the root of people's fears, and egnaging with them positively, by addressing those concerns - some of which are legitimate. Not merely dismissing them as bigots, and trying to shut down debate.
Fair enough. They're the only two posters coming from anything resembling a counter position on this thread though.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
they're the two I'm ignoring
Athos
Well-Known Member
I can't speak for Thora, but, essentially, mine is not a counter position: I beleive trans women are women. The only respects in which I differ from the general consensus here are: first, that not every woman who seeks to exclude trans women from women-only spaces is motivated by hatred and bigotry; and, secondly, that taking extereme positions and slurring opponents (as happens on both sides of this issue) is counterproductive.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I feel the need to balance that sentiment with some different considerations.
Most importantly that a lot of the visible struggles that are being waged, including the very example this thread is about, involve campaigning by LGBT groups. A campaigning force to be reckoned with if ever there was one, one of the few areas of life where sizeable progress has been made in my lifetime so far. Given the vast progress made in various countries over issues ranging from the age of consent to marriage and eduction, many of the battles are won, and it doesn't surprise me that many trans issues now get more of a look in when such groups decide what to do with their voice.
Which brings me to my next point, regarding the quantity of prejudice coming from various directions. My last point referred to visible struggles and groups doing something with their voice. This is a subset of the wider prejudices faced, sometimes little more than a media bubble. And the UK media has been on a very interesting journey in regards to trans issues this century. They messed up and were shits on so many occasions, and faced various backlashes, and in many ways actually managed to get a bit better, sometimes even including the nastiest publications. In more recent years its actually been some of the most self-righteous publications and columnists who've fouled up on this, and in some ways this Greer saga has parallels with the Moore-Twitter-Burchill storm from a few years ago. Since then, and in a far wider cross-section the press, we had reasonably sensitive coverage of the transition of Kellie Maloney. Yes the media still make a spectacle of it all, but they do that with everything so even if the pinnacle of equality and acceptance is reached, this stuff will probably still feature.
It doesn't surprise me at all that some with a keen interest in feminism will be found to be out of step and stinking of shit on this. It's an ism so there is dogma. We can easily expect that those who end up with a particularly inflexible dogma, those that end up with far too much mental comfort and suffocation from the dogma, will be found wanting one day. The caution in this point is that fresh dogma that may one day lead to shit on another front could potentially be born during conflicts with this old guard of feminism.
yes, when it comes to anti-immigration some fears could be said to be legitimate, but some aren't, immigrants don't get free cars, trans women are oppressed (you don't even have to accept transsexuality to acknowledge that). it is difficult to find any legitimate fears amongst the terfs whose arguments seems to be that men are trans to get into women only spaces to rape women, or that its a secret male plot to take over womens bodies. There is no evidence for the former and it sounds absurd, particularly as a consequence of taking hormones makes raping anyone almost impossible, and the second is loonery. So yes there are fears, just as there were with gay people, bigotry is fear, but those fears are not really legitimate and so should be robustly challenged, not apologised for.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, those two TERF arguments are particularly unconvincing. As are many arguments against immigration.
But what about a woman who simply defines womanhood as being woman-born? Is that necessarily hateful? She might well accept that trans women believe themselves to be women, accept that they are not simply trying to infiltrate women=only spaces, and feel sorry for the pain that trans people suffer, but, nonetheless, conceive of womanhood in those terms. Is she a bigot? Should she be forced to accept her gender being defined differently? What if that impacts upon her sense of self-identity? What if the consequences of that are to drive her out of women-only places? Or to make her feel unsafe?
For my part, I think she's wrong (I consider trans women to be women), but I don't necessarily think shes a bigot or motivated by hate. And I think there are more positive ways of engaging with her than those adopted by some. To label her a bigot, and seek to silence her or drive her out doesn't seem right to me.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Well, this thread isn't about "what do people on urban thing of trans people" - it's about what goes on in the big Out There. And those arguments are some that are made. Are we restricting all discussion to things people on here have said?
Athos
Well-Known Member
No, but it's a bit of a strawman to keep suggesting that the only arguments on the other side of the debate are the extreme and ridiculous ones (albeit they do exist, of course).
Athos and others are being accused of supporting some kind of 'terf line', which these arguments appear to be examples of. I'm sure there are some nutters out theres pushing them, but to use them in this debate is dishonest, as this isn't the 'terf line' being supported by anyone on this thread.
What about someone who simply thinks homosexuality is sinful or unnatural? Is that hateful. They might accept that people believe themselves to be gay, and feel sorry for the pain they suffer, but conceive that since being gay is unnatural they are wrong about how they feel. Is that bigoted? What are the impacts of people being queer on heterosexual identity? What if the consequences are to drive people out of single sex spaces? Or make them feel unsafe?
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