Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[weltweit]

AuntiStella what is a TERF? and do you have a good definition of what a "cis" woman means?

 

[Athos]

I said those were the TERF arguments. I've had a whole website dedicated to describing me in exactly this way.

You've clearly made the decision to not take any notice of my life experience and to believe the trans exclusionary arguments instead. so I'm putting you on ignore - I believe I've had to do that with you before.

They are not the only TERF arguments, though; they're merely some of the more obviously stupid and bigotted ones, which you've cherry-picked to give the impression that there are no more nuanced and persuasive arguments from women who would seek to exclude trans women. It's dishonest and counterproductive; you'd be better off acknowledging those other issues and tackling them head-on, rather than trying to shout down those who disagree, or simply ignoring anything they say. There's no better example than you suggesting I believe the trans-exclusionary arguments; I'm on record on this thread of saying that I do consider trans women to be women! Nor have I failed to take into account your life experience; I just don't find it determinative on every point, I'm afraid - I'm able to see things from others' perspectives, too.

 

[Citizen66]

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, I think.

 

[Sea Star]

AuntiStella what is a TERF? and do you have a good definition of what a "cis" woman means?

Here's an analysis of the origins of the term from within radical feminism. Hopefully it answers any questions you might have.
http://www.transadvocate.com/terf-what-it-means-and-where-it-came-from_n_13066.htm

instead of defining a cis woman - because it doesn't just apply to women, it applies to men and women - cis is just the opposite of trans, more or less. A transgender person is someone like me and a cisgender person is someone who identifies as the gender written on their original passport. It's greek I think and you find use of the prefix cis in science too.

 

[billy_bob]

Just what this debate needed. The wisdom of Richard Dawkins.



link

Wonderful: People Who Once Wrote an Important Book but Are Now Smug Self-Important Gobshites flock together.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Further to what AuntiStella said about Cis, it started to be used in this context because saying "women" and "trans women" suggests trans women are not 'real' women, and "women" is the default, is what is 'normal.' Using Cis adds a descriptor to non-trans women as well, so as to level the playing field.

Obviously day-to-day neither descriptor is needed, and woman/women suffices, but in conversations such as this we have cis women and trans women instead of women and trans women. It makes a difference.

(Of course, sub in 'men' where appropriate when talking about cis/trans men.)

 

[bi0boy]

"Cis people" is just a convenient linguistic shortcut for "people who aren't trans".

Of course that doesn't stop TERFS complaining about it - "I refuse to be labelled as a cis woman without my consent. I am a woman"

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do any of these trans-exclusionary types ever have anything to say about trans-men?

Is there a cross-over with female separatists?

 

[Sea Star]

Do any of these trans-exclusionary types ever have anything to say about trans-men?

They say trans men are women, predictably, and that they can be included in women's spaces. My transgender male friend finds this hilarious!!

though when he came out he was living at the women's camp at Greenham Common and immediately found himself being disowned and attacked by the community that had previously been his entire life. Led to a breakdown and serious mental health issues.

I've seen all sorts written by TERFs - that trans men have been brainwashed by the trans cult, that most trans men choose to detransition (not true), and a new one yesterday that transgender is just "gay conversion" therapy!

Is there a cross-over with female separatists?

Yes - I believe so - in fact I think the TERF movement comes from within the female separatist community.

 

[killer b]

I don't think there's any 'trans exclusionary types' here, so I suspect you're unlikely to get a decent overview of their arguments...

 

[Sea Star]

I don't think there's any 'trans exclusionary types' here, so I suspect you're unlikely to get a decent overview of their arguments...

you can find it all over the internet though - if that's what you want. Personally I try to avoid it as much as possible.

 

[Athos]

Do any of these trans-exclusionary types ever have anything to say about trans-men?

Is there a cross-over with female separatists?

I doubt it. For whom would trans men be a big issue? Whether or not you buy the TERFs' arguments, you can understand feminists' fear of patriarchy. There can be no corresponding concerns among cis men about the consequences of accepting trans men, can there?

ETA: obviously, this is from the perspective of cis men; I understand that many feminist TERFs still have strong views about trans men.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you can understand feminists' fear of patriarchy.

tbh I don't really understand the 'fear of patriarchy' involved in the issue of trans-gender people.

 

[Athos]

tbh I don't really understand the 'fear of patriarchy' involved in the issue of trans-gender people.

The fact that women need places where they can be safe from men (in which category they wrongly inclde trans women). Nobody seriously thinks men need places where they can be safe from women, though. So the argument over whether trans men are men or not doesn't have the same significance.

 

[smokedout]

I think it's intellectualised bigotry about something people cannot understand and empathise with - just like resistance to gays in lesbians - and with similar arguments

I remember people getting angry and refusing to define as straight, using much the same arguments as people who reject the term cis

I remember both gay men and lesbians being viewed as some kind of existential sexual threat, particularly towards children and arguments that they should be kept out of child spaces such as schools and for a long time gay people were kept out of the army this threat was thought so extreme

I remember people saying they don't care what people do in private, but to allow non-heterosexual sexualities to be normalised was dangerous for society

I remember it being argued that gays and lesbians defiled the sacredness of families/marriage/traditional relationships and therefore gay relationshipshould not be seen as equivalent to straight ones

There are echoes of all these arguments in the terfs position and they were all made by 'reasonable people' with all kinds of intellctual reasons to back them up at the time - looking back now however we can see they were based on bigotry and people finding it difficult to come to terms with things they couldn't themselves understand. That's what I think's going on here by and large, and that's why the abuse so often slips into bullying, outing people etc - intellectually justified prejudice is very dangerous

 

[Vintage Paw]

The fact that women need places where they can be safe from men (in which category they wrongly inclde trans women). Nobody seriously thinks men need places where they can be safe from women, though. So the argument over whether trans men are men or not doesn't have the same significance.

There are obvious differences relating to the fact that it's acceptable for a woman to adopt 'male' things - it's even recommended in many things (act like a man to be successful at work; just like one of the lads; wearing trousers; I'm not like other girls). It's a crime of the worst kind for a man to do anything remotely 'girly' (you throw like a girl; don't be a big girl's blouse; that's gay; what, are you on your period or something?). So from that perspective it stands to reason that society is likely to be more understanding towards trans men than it is towards trans women, because they see trans women as crossing boundaries in the wrong direction.

 

[D'wards]

Nobody seriously thinks men need places where they can be safe from women, though.

Its called the shed, amirightfellas?

Take my wife, please

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's intellectualised bigotry about something people cannot understand and empathise with - just like resistance to gays in lesbians - and with similar arguments

I remember people getting angry and refusing to define as straight, using much the same arguments as people who reject the term cis

I remember both gay men and lesbians being viewed as some kind of existential sexual threat, particularly towards children and arguments that they should be kept out of child spaces such as schools and for a long time gay people were kept out of the army this threat was thought so extreme

I remember people saying they don't care what people do in private, but to allow non-heterosexual sexualities to be normalised was dangerous for society

I remember it being argued that gays and lesbians defiled the sacredness of families/marriage/traditional relationships and therefore gay relationshipshould not be seen as equivalent to straight ones

There are echoes of all these arguments in the terfs position and they were all made by 'reasonable people' with all kinds of intellctual reasons to back them up at the time - looking back now however we can see they were based on bigotry and people finding it difficult to come to terms with things they couldn't themselves understand. That's what I think's going on here by and large, and that's why the abuse so often slips into bullying, outing people etc - intellectually justified prejudice is very dangerous

Yep, I completely agree.

 

[Sea Star]

and ironic now that much of the prejudice we face now comes from men and women who identify as gay and lesbian, echoing the prejudice that gay people faced twenty or thirty years ago.

 

[Athos]

There are obvious differences relating to the fact that it's acceptable for a woman to adopt 'male' things - it's even recommended in many things (act like a man to be successful at work; just like one of the lads; wearing trousers; I'm not like other girls). It's a crime of the worst kind for a man to do anything remotely 'girly' (you throw like a girl; don't be a big girl's blouse; that's gay; what, are you on your period or something?). So from that perspective it stands to reason that society is likely to be more understanding towards trans men than it is towards trans women, because they see trans women as crossing boundaries in the wrong direction.

All true.

 

[likesfish]

You have, becasue you've implied that all those who'd seek to exclude trans women from women-only spaces believe that all trans women are "are abusive men, in a state of constant sexual gratification, that we exploit or even "rape" women by stealing their bodies and culture, and that we CHOOSE to be like this." That's simply not true, and it does a disservice to your argument. I think a calmer, more empathetic dialogue would be more productive. But, I suppose that's easy for me to say, since I'm not on the end of the hurtful stuff that you have suffered.

So trans women are body stealing vampires???????

 

[Sea Star]

There are obvious differences relating to the fact that it's acceptable for a woman to adopt 'male' things - it's even recommended in many things (act like a man to be successful at work; just like one of the lads; wearing trousers; I'm not like other girls). It's a crime of the worst kind for a man to do anything remotely 'girly' (you throw like a girl; don't be a big girl's blouse; that's gay; what, are you on your period or something?). So from that perspective it stands to reason that society is likely to be more understanding towards trans men than it is towards trans women, because they see trans women as crossing boundaries in the wrong direction.

I'm relatively new to this and going up a huge learning curve, but it does seem odd to me that those who hold the TERF position also seem to hold masculinity up as strong and good and femininity as weak and bad. It has led to even feminine presenting cis women being excluded in the past.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Its called the shed, amirightfellas?

Take my wife, please

I was looking at some stuff on ebay the other day, and someone had listed something with 'MAN CAVE' and although I could have put it on my watch list I closed the tab immediately. I'm not giving that shit credence

 

[Sea Star]

So trans women are body stealing vampires???????

yeah, though the word i saw used was "rapists". which isn't extreme at all, oh no!

 

[Athos]

I think it's intellectualised bigotry about something people cannot understand and empathise with - just like resistance to gays in lesbians - and with similar arguments

I remember people getting angry and refusing to define as straight, using much the same arguments as people who reject the term cis

I remember both gay men and lesbians being viewed as some kind of existential sexual threat, particularly towards children and arguments that they should be kept out of child spaces such as schools and for a long time gay people were kept out of the army this threat was thought so extreme

I remember people saying they don't care what people do in private, but to allow non-heterosexual sexualities to be normalised was dangerous for society

I remember it being argued that gays and lesbians defiled the sacredness of families/marriage/traditional relationships and therefore gay relationshipshould not be seen as equivalent to straight ones

There are echoes of all these arguments in the terfs position and they were all made by 'reasonable people' with all kinds of intellctual reasons to back them up at the time - looking back now however we can see they were based on bigotry and people finding it difficult to come to terms with things they couldn't themselves understand. That's what I think's going on here by and large, and that's why the abuse so often slips into bullying, outing people etc - intellectually justified prejudice is very dangerous

I'm sure there's some truth in a lot of this. However, the analogy breaks down where power relations are considered. Hetrosexuals were/are always privileged (at least with regards to sexuality) compared to homosexuals. But the distinction is less clear (to some) when comparing cis women to trans women. On one argument (which I find persuasive), cis women are privileged; on another i.e. the one which wrongly sees trans women as men, it is trans women who are relatively privileged. It really does all come back to the definition of 'woman.'

 

[trabuquera]

Ummm, nobody SENSIBLE still maintains that men need places where they are "safe from women" ... yet somehow they still exist (cf the Garrick, White's, Turfs, the Travellers Club, etc) - elite and still explicitly male-only spaces where decisions which matter still get made.

 

[Athos]

So trans women are body stealing vampires???????

I certainly don't think so, but, in fairness, neither do all those feminists who reject trans women, which is why I thought AuntiStella's caricature of them was unhelpful.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I'm relatively new to this and going up a huge learning curve, but it does seem odd to me that those who hold the TERF position also seem to hold masculinity up as strong and good and femininity as weak and bad. It has led to even feminine presenting cis women being excluded in the past.

There's a whole bunch of mixed up shit. Like, just in feminist arguments in general with the stuff around the pinkification of kids toys and other things - rather than taking a nuanced approach by saying that prescribing pink for girls is a bad thing and girls and women should have a range of things that are acceptable for them, instead you end up getting people slagging off girls and women who just so happen to like pink and glitter. The idea that you should be free to choose is lost on them. Having nothing but pink and princesses in the kids aisles for 'girls toys' is bullshit and harmful because it tries to push one acceptable mode of being. But telling those same girls they're not allowed to like pink at all and they're a sell-out if they do is also bullshit.

It's the same kind of thing going on with some rad fems. The nutty stuff about how we should all disavow marriage and kids because they're just a way to enslave us. Utter tripe. They ways in which marriage and kids have been used by the state and patriarchy are methods of control, but it's that that we fight against, not the concept of those things themselves. The point is you fight to give people a choice.

Same with the whole "your ancestors fought wars and against laws so that you could have the vote, you will bloody well use it." No. They fought so we'd have the choice to vote. Anyone choosing not to vote is exercising the same hard-won freedom as someone who does vote (if you want to think of it in those terms).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I But the distinction is less clear (to some) when comparing cis women to trans women. '

This is where I think we're departing sharply from reality. The idea that trans-gender people are in any way privileged is ludicrous.

 

[Sea Star]

There's a whole bunch of mixed up shit. Like, just in feminist arguments in general with the stuff around the pinkification of kids toys and other things - rather than taking a nuanced approach by saying that prescribing pink for girls is a bad thing and girls and women should have a range of things that are acceptable for them, instead you end up getting people slagging off girls and women who just so happen to like pink and glitter. The idea that you should be free to choose is lost on them. Having nothing but pink and princesses in the kids aisles for 'girls toys' is bullshit and harmful because it tries to push one acceptable mode of being. But telling those same girls they're not allowed to like pink at all and they're a sell-out if they do is also bullshit.

It's the same kind of thing going on with some rad fems. The nutty stuff about how we should all disavow marriage and kids because they're just a way to enslave us. Utter tripe. They ways in which marriage and kids have been used by the state and patriarchy are methods of control, but it's that that we fight against, not the concept of those things themselves. The point is you fight to give people a choice.

Same with the whole "your ancestors fought wars and against laws so that you could have the vote, you will bloody well use it." No. They fought so we'd have the choice to vote. Anyone choosing not to vote is exercising the same hard-won freedom as someone who does vote (if you want to think of it in those terms).

agree completely!

I know a cis woman who goes to all the wimmin's festivals - where Trans women would not be allowed to go (she suggested I go and she would be my personal protector, but I really don't want to go and the idea of going just to cause trouble does not appeal to me).
And she tells me what she sees and hears there - much of it is utterly bonkers! But my friend has two young children. she can take her daughter, but not her son, who is a toddler. this too is bonkers, and hardly supportive of mothers!!

Also - apparently there are TERF events now that advertise as Trans friendly because they admit Trans men!! The dishonesty amazes me!