weltweit
Well-Known Member
AuntiStella what is a TERF? and do you have a good definition of what a "cis" woman means?
Why do some feminists hate transgender people?
- Thread starter D'wards
- Start date
Athos
Well-Known Member
They are not the only TERF arguments, though; they're merely some of the more obviously stupid and bigotted ones, which you've cherry-picked to give the impression that there are no more nuanced and persuasive arguments from women who would seek to exclude trans women. It's dishonest and counterproductive; you'd be better off acknowledging those other issues and tackling them head-on, rather than trying to shout down those who disagree, or simply ignoring anything they say. There's no better example than you suggesting I believe the trans-exclusionary arguments; I'm on record on this thread of saying that I do consider trans women to be women! Nor have I failed to take into account your life experience; I just don't find it determinative on every point, I'm afraid - I'm able to see things from others' perspectives, too.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Here's an analysis of the origins of the term from within radical feminism. Hopefully it answers any questions you might have.
http://www.transadvocate.com/terf-what-it-means-and-where-it-came-from_n_13066.htm
instead of defining a cis woman - because it doesn't just apply to women, it applies to men and women - cis is just the opposite of trans, more or less. A transgender person is someone like me and a cisgender person is someone who identifies as the gender written on their original passport. It's greek I think and you find use of the prefix cis in science too.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
Wonderful: People Who Once Wrote an Important Book but Are Now Smug Self-Important Gobshites flock together.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Further to what AuntiStella said about Cis, it started to be used in this context because saying "women" and "trans women" suggests trans women are not 'real' women, and "women" is the default, is what is 'normal.' Using Cis adds a descriptor to non-trans women as well, so as to level the playing field.
Obviously day-to-day neither descriptor is needed, and woman/women suffices, but in conversations such as this we have cis women and trans women instead of women and trans women. It makes a difference.
(Of course, sub in 'men' where appropriate when talking about cis/trans men.)
Obviously day-to-day neither descriptor is needed, and woman/women suffices, but in conversations such as this we have cis women and trans women instead of women and trans women. It makes a difference.
(Of course, sub in 'men' where appropriate when talking about cis/trans men.)
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Do any of these trans-exclusionary types ever have anything to say about trans-men?
Is there a cross-over with female separatists?
Is there a cross-over with female separatists?
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
They say trans men are women, predictably, and that they can be included in women's spaces. My transgender male friend finds this hilarious!!
though when he came out he was living at the women's camp at Greenham Common and immediately found himself being disowned and attacked by the community that had previously been his entire life. Led to a breakdown and serious mental health issues.
I've seen all sorts written by TERFs - that trans men have been brainwashed by the trans cult, that most trans men choose to detransition (not true), and a new one yesterday that transgender is just "gay conversion" therapy!
Yes - I believe so - in fact I think the TERF movement comes from within the female separatist community.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
you can find it all over the internet though - if that's what you want. Personally I try to avoid it as much as possible.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I doubt it. For whom would trans men be a big issue? Whether or not you buy the TERFs' arguments, you can understand feminists' fear of patriarchy. There can be no corresponding concerns among cis men about the consequences of accepting trans men, can there?
ETA: obviously, this is from the perspective of cis men; I understand that many feminist TERFs still have strong views about trans men.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
tbh I don't really understand the 'fear of patriarchy' involved in the issue of trans-gender people.
Athos
Well-Known Member
The fact that women need places where they can be safe from men (in which category they wrongly inclde trans women). Nobody seriously thinks men need places where they can be safe from women, though. So the argument over whether trans men are men or not doesn't have the same significance.
I think it's intellectualised bigotry about something people cannot understand and empathise with - just like resistance to gays in lesbians - and with similar arguments
I remember people getting angry and refusing to define as straight, using much the same arguments as people who reject the term cis
I remember both gay men and lesbians being viewed as some kind of existential sexual threat, particularly towards children and arguments that they should be kept out of child spaces such as schools and for a long time gay people were kept out of the army this threat was thought so extreme
I remember people saying they don't care what people do in private, but to allow non-heterosexual sexualities to be normalised was dangerous for society
I remember it being argued that gays and lesbians defiled the sacredness of families/marriage/traditional relationships and therefore gay relationshipshould not be seen as equivalent to straight ones
There are echoes of all these arguments in the terfs position and they were all made by 'reasonable people' with all kinds of intellctual reasons to back them up at the time - looking back now however we can see they were based on bigotry and people finding it difficult to come to terms with things they couldn't themselves understand. That's what I think's going on here by and large, and that's why the abuse so often slips into bullying, outing people etc - intellectually justified prejudice is very dangerous
I remember people getting angry and refusing to define as straight, using much the same arguments as people who reject the term cis
I remember both gay men and lesbians being viewed as some kind of existential sexual threat, particularly towards children and arguments that they should be kept out of child spaces such as schools and for a long time gay people were kept out of the army this threat was thought so extreme
I remember people saying they don't care what people do in private, but to allow non-heterosexual sexualities to be normalised was dangerous for society
I remember it being argued that gays and lesbians defiled the sacredness of families/marriage/traditional relationships and therefore gay relationshipshould not be seen as equivalent to straight ones
There are echoes of all these arguments in the terfs position and they were all made by 'reasonable people' with all kinds of intellctual reasons to back them up at the time - looking back now however we can see they were based on bigotry and people finding it difficult to come to terms with things they couldn't themselves understand. That's what I think's going on here by and large, and that's why the abuse so often slips into bullying, outing people etc - intellectually justified prejudice is very dangerous
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
There are obvious differences relating to the fact that it's acceptable for a woman to adopt 'male' things - it's even recommended in many things (act like a man to be successful at work; just like one of the lads; wearing trousers; I'm not like other girls). It's a crime of the worst kind for a man to do anything remotely 'girly' (you throw like a girl; don't be a big girl's blouse; that's gay; what, are you on your period or something?). So from that perspective it stands to reason that society is likely to be more understanding towards trans men than it is towards trans women, because they see trans women as crossing boundaries in the wrong direction.
D'wards
IT'S YOUR DECISION DANIEL
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep, I completely agree.
Athos
Well-Known Member
All true.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
I'm relatively new to this and going up a huge learning curve, but it does seem odd to me that those who hold the TERF position also seem to hold masculinity up as strong and good and femininity as weak and bad. It has led to even feminine presenting cis women being excluded in the past.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Its called the shed, amirightfellas?
Take my wife, please
I was looking at some stuff on ebay the other day, and someone had listed something with 'MAN CAVE' and although I could have put it on my watch list I closed the tab immediately. I'm not giving that shit credence
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
yeah, though the word i saw used was "rapists". which isn't extreme at all, oh no!So trans women are body stealing vampires???????
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm sure there's some truth in a lot of this. However, the analogy breaks down where power relations are considered. Hetrosexuals were/are always privileged (at least with regards to sexuality) compared to homosexuals. But the distinction is less clear (to some) when comparing cis women to trans women. On one argument (which I find persuasive), cis women are privileged; on another i.e. the one which wrongly sees trans women as men, it is trans women who are relatively privileged. It really does all come back to the definition of 'woman.'
trabuquera
Modesty Bag
Ummm, nobody SENSIBLE still maintains that men need places where they are "safe from women" ... yet somehow they still exist (cf the Garrick, White's, Turfs, the Travellers Club, etc) - elite and still explicitly male-only spaces where decisions which matter still get made.
Athos
Well-Known Member
So trans women are body stealing vampires???????
I certainly don't think so, but, in fairness, neither do all those feminists who reject trans women, which is why I thought AuntiStella's caricature of them was unhelpful.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
There's a whole bunch of mixed up shit. Like, just in feminist arguments in general with the stuff around the pinkification of kids toys and other things - rather than taking a nuanced approach by saying that prescribing pink for girls is a bad thing and girls and women should have a range of things that are acceptable for them, instead you end up getting people slagging off girls and women who just so happen to like pink and glitter. The idea that you should be free to choose is lost on them. Having nothing but pink and princesses in the kids aisles for 'girls toys' is bullshit and harmful because it tries to push one acceptable mode of being. But telling those same girls they're not allowed to like pink at all and they're a sell-out if they do is also bullshit.
It's the same kind of thing going on with some rad fems. The nutty stuff about how we should all disavow marriage and kids because they're just a way to enslave us. Utter tripe. They ways in which marriage and kids have been used by the state and patriarchy are methods of control, but it's that that we fight against, not the concept of those things themselves. The point is you fight to give people a choice.
Same with the whole "your ancestors fought wars and against laws so that you could have the vote, you will bloody well use it." No. They fought so we'd have the choice to vote. Anyone choosing not to vote is exercising the same hard-won freedom as someone who does vote (if you want to think of it in those terms).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is where I think we're departing sharply from reality. The idea that trans-gender people are in any way privileged is ludicrous.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
agree completely!
I know a cis woman who goes to all the wimmin's festivals - where Trans women would not be allowed to go (she suggested I go and she would be my personal protector, but I really don't want to go and the idea of going just to cause trouble does not appeal to me).
And she tells me what she sees and hears there - much of it is utterly bonkers! But my friend has two young children. she can take her daughter, but not her son, who is a toddler. this too is bonkers, and hardly supportive of mothers!!
Also - apparently there are TERF events now that advertise as Trans friendly because they admit Trans men!! The dishonesty amazes me!
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