Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[littlebabyjesus]

In its draft stages there were plans to include a 'duty to promote socio-economic equality' in the overarching equalities act that replaced the old race/disability/sex discrimination legislation in (?) 2010 - which might have provided some legal levers to recognise discrimination on the basis of class alongside the 'protected characteristics' (albeit cloaked in anodyne New Labour-speak terminology). Surprise surprise, it didn't make it into the final Act.

I'd have been amazed if it hadn't been dropped. How do you produce a legal definition of class?

 

[billy_bob]

Ugh. I'd not heard that before. Horrible.

I think Greer's comments are deeply ignorant, and wilfully so - she deliberately trivialises the process by reducing it to 'cutting your dick off and putting on a dress'. She's being deliberately crass, seems to me, but all that does is make her look stupid.

But I don't really think the comparisons with racism are very useful. The above racist comment is a good example of one that is backed up by nothing other than the person's prejudices. Greer's position isn't really the same, and I don't think it can be dismissed in the same way.

I don't say that it's exactly the same, of course there's much more to it than that. But it reduces the complexities of identity ascription to a simplistic binary, and trivialises even the constituent parts of that binary distinction, in order to sneer at and try to exclude people who don't accord with her personal definition of a particular identity label, in a way that's pretty strongly reminiscent to me of the process going on in the dog/stable/horse comment.

 

[billy_bob]

I'd have been amazed if it hadn't been dropped. How do you produce a legal definition of class?

Well, yes - even harder because they were trying to produce a legal definition not of 'class' but of 'socio-economic exclusion' or some such euphemism.

 

[Sea Star]

On a simplistic level, yes. It appears to be a sub-set of a large, relatively privileged group (cis women) asserting that privilege against a smaller, disadvantaged group (trans women). But, that's becasue we see trans women as women. However, many TERFs see trans women as men; and so, to them it appears to be a disadvantaged group (women) resisting male privilege and the colonisation and domination of not only the female body, but also the very notion of womanhood, by men.

And, although it's not a definition of womanhood to which I subscribe (not least of all becasue of the harm it results in for trans people), the idea that women must have been born and socialised as girls and women is no less logical than the counter definition i.e. that a woman is anyone who says they're a woman. In fact, the latter has some siginificant logical weanesses e.g. the idea that, in respect of almost everything else, just saying something doesn't make it true.

There's reams of evidence that trans people aren't just saying it. Try Googling for it. All of it ignored by the TERFs deliberately as they try to shore up their untenable version of femininity that around 95% (made up stat but it wouldn't surprise me!) women completely disagree with!

And please do not forget that there are also Trans men and non binary people who were assigned female. These people are defined as women by the TERFs even though they do not identify as women. and they also say Trans is real. I've spoken to plenty of trans men and our experiences are virtually identical.

When you consider that there are almost as many trans men as there are trans women it becomes impossible to see trans as being "male privilege and the colonisation and domination of ...the female body."

Some people are trans; get used to it! How can we all be making it up - inlcuding people like me who knew they were trans years before we even knew that such a thing existed, nor had the language to express it; and in scientific studies up to 16% of children - both boys and girls - exhibit transgender behaviour and express transgender ideas.

On the other hand the TERF notion of female is entirely built on castles in the air. It's typical dogma that does not stand up!

 

[Sea Star]

I hope so because I think its been a bad couple of years for feminism. If you follow Metro on Facebook everytime a feminist story is posted the vast majority of comments from women are anti-feminism.

I see an ideological battle going on within feminism, and I'm very happy to see that the trans corner is being fought by largely younger women, while the old guard of influential TERFs mostly seem to be about my age or older making them the feminist equivalent to UKIP and definitely on their way out!

 

[billy_bob]

These people aren't representative of feminism. They represent an extreme faction within feminism and have been driving women away ever since they managed to gain so much influence. I believe that feminism is in the process of being taken back by actual feminists.

I really hope you're right. I fear that for a large number of people who are less politically switched on than people on this thread/forum (to judge purely from how much time we're spending discussing this, if nothing else), Germaine Greer is not seen as some barking outlier but as pretty much the archetype of what a feminist is.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On a simplistic level, isn't a movement that is designed to fight oppression and exclusivity demonstrating exactly that in quite stark ways.

Only if you believe that feminism is a unitary movement, which it isn't. This is a vocal minority within a minority. It isn't representative of "feminism" as a whole.

 

[Sea Star]

I really hope you're right. I fear that for a large number of people who are less politically switched on than people on this thread/forum (to judge purely from how much time we're spending discussing this, if nothing else), Germaine Greer is not seen as some barking outlier but as pretty much the archetype of what a feminist is.

I've had quite a few feminists I know messaging me over the Greer thing to both disassociate themselves from Greer's comments and to express their utter disappointment at her behaviour.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Didn't the Tories try to argue that the upper class are an oppressed minority?

An argument that always falls apart when you ask "oppressed by what or whom?".

 

[Athos]

There's reams of evidence that trans people aren't just saying it. Try Googling for it. All of it ignored by the TERFs deliberately as they try to shore up their untenable version of femininity that around 95% (made up stat but it wouldn't surprise me!) women completely disagree with!

And please do not forget that there are also Trans men and non binary people who were assigned female. These people are defined as women by the TERFs even though they do not identify as women. and they also say Trans is real. I've spoken to plenty of trans men and our experiences are virtually identical.

When you consider that there are almost as many trans men as there are trans women it becomes impossible to see trans as being "male privilege and the colonisation and domination of ...the female body."

Some people are trans; get used to it! How can we all be making it up - inlcuding people like me who knew they were trans years before we even knew that such a thing existed, nor had the language to express it; and in scientific studies up to 16% of children - both boys and girls - exhibit transgender behaviour and express transgender ideas.

On the other hand the TERF notion of female is entirely built on castles in the air. It's typical dogma that does not stand up!

Just to reiterate: I define trans women as women. My point was that TERFs don't. And one of their arguments is about the logical endpoint of accepting trans women as women; they argue that it would require cis women to admit into women-only spaces anyone who simply says they're a women, even pre-op trans women who don't appear as stereotypical women (clothes make-up etc.). The consequence of which would be that any man could enter a women-only space simply by saying they were a woman. This is what I was getting at when I spoke about 'just saying so', not that idea that there's nothing more to transgenderism.

Nor am I saying that you're 'making it up.' I have no doubt that you felt trans for years before you even knew what trans was; I don't think even TERFs would deny the existence of people who identify as transgend; rather, they deny that believing you're a woman makes it so.

Ultimately, it appears to me that there is not one generally accepted definition of 'woman.' There are many competing definitions, most of which have strengths and weaknesses; I have adopted one that includes trans women, not becasue of the compelling logic of so doing, but becasue of the harm that arises from excluding trans women. But, I'm not sure that, as a man, I feel comfortable trying to force women to make the same choices as me. This is not least of all becasue it's an easy choice for me; I don't know how I'd feel if I felt that my sense of self would be harmed by a redifinition of what I am, or, if, say, my life experiences were such that I was scared of the practical consequences of adopting a course that could allow men to 'infiltrate' women-only spaces.

I think that part of the problem is that people on both sides adopt extreme positions, and make little effort to attempt to empathise with those on the other side. I can understand the pain it must cause trans women to be excluded by other women; I can also understand why some women become angry at the idea of being bullied by people they consider men. I am hopeful that, in time, a more reasonable dialogue can take place, which ultimately results in all people accepting trans women as women. I don't think Greer has helped with that; nor do I think have some of her opponents.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I hope so because I think its been a bad couple of years for feminism. If you follow Metro on Facebook everytime a feminist story is posted the vast majority of comments from women are anti-feminism.

If you tell women for long enough that feminism doesn't represent their interests, some will believe it. The same "that's bad for you" schtick puts people off of trade unionism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've had quite a few feminists I know messaging me over the Greer thing to both disassociate themselves from Greer's comments and to express their utter disappointment at her behaviour.

I can't really see why so much of the commentariat still view Greer as representative of "feminism". She's a professional controversialist, so it's fairly apparent that her views will hardly ever be on the mainstream of any politics.
She is useful for the media to hang ideas off, and to get rent-a-gob quotes from, though. I wonder if she meditates at all on her personal morality, and what her outpouring cause, as she banks another media-sourced cheque.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I can also understand why some women become angry at the idea of being bullied by people they consider men.

Who's doing that, though? Where are women being bullied by people they consider men? Can you give me an example of that happening?

 

[Athos]

Who's doing that, though? Where are women being bullied by people they consider men? Can you give me an example of that happening?

TERFs say that they are shouted down and abused by trans women (whom - wrongly, in my opinion - they consider men).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

TERFs say that they are shouted down and abused by trans women.

Can you quote me an example. Do you yourself believe that this is what is happening? I'd prefer something a bit more than an online spat - practical examples of it happening irl?

 

[Sea Star]

Just to reiterate: I define trans women as women. My point was that TERFs don't. And one of their arguments is about the logical endpoint of accepting trans women as women; they argue that it would require cis women to admit into women-only spaces anyone who simply says they're a women, even pre-op trans women who don't appear as stereotypical women (clothes make-up etc.). The consequence of which would be that any man could enter a women-only space simply by saying they were a woman. This is what I was getting at when I spoke about 'just saying so', not that idea that there's nothing more to transgenderism.

Nor am I saying that you're 'making it up.' I have no doubt that you felt trans for years before you even knew what trans was; I don't think even TERFs would deny the existence of people who identify as transgend; rather, they deny that believing you're a woman makes it so.

Ultimately, it appears to me that there is not one generally accepted definition of 'woman.' There are many competing definitions, most of which have strengths and weaknesses; I have adopted one that includes trans women, not becasue of the compelling logic of so doing, but becasue of the harm that arises from excluding trans women. But, I'm not sure that, as a man, I feel comfortable trying to force women to make the same choices as me. This is not least of all becasue it's an easy choice for me; I don't know how I'd feel if I felt that my sense of self would be harmed by a redifinition of what I am, or, if, say, my life experiences were such that I was scared of the practical consequences of adopting a course that could allow men to 'infiltrate' women-only spaces.

I think that part of the problem is that people on both sides adopt extreme positions, and make little effort to attempt to empathise with those on the other side. I can understand the pain it must cause trans women to be excluded by other women; I can also understand why some women become angry at the idea of being bullied by people they consider men. I am hopeful that, in time, a more reasonable dialogue can take place, which ultimately results in all people accepting trans women as women. I don't think Greer has helped with that; nor do I think have some of her opponents.

I think the change will be that those women who want to exclude us will become more and more irrelevent and be eventually considered to be the bigoted dinosaurs they are.

The thing is - cis women can be bullying and abusive the same as any cis man. So the risks associated with accidentally letting men into women's spaces is already there and already dealt with. If a cis man is claiming to be trans to gain entry to a women only space I also believe that it will become apparent very quickly, both to trans and cis women. If the TERFs were willing to let trans women police that side of things I believe that we would have a strong motivation to get it right.

Also, trans men are welcomed by TERFs into women's spaces. These are men with beards, and testosterone and penises, and they are welcomed into women's spaces by TERFs. Trans men are as likely to be aggressive/ abusive/ etc as cis men. So why the double standard? It just seems utterly dishonest to me and it seems that the decision to exclude trans women is an arbitrary one with a few problems that could be easily overcome.

The extrmeism is not equal I'm afraid. We mostly stand by our principle that we are women (there are trans women who buy into TERF arguments, but not many IME) and with that comes womanhood, complete and undiluted, or we're not women. The TERF position is that we are abusive men, in a state of constant sexual gratification, that we exploit or even "rape" women by stealing their bodies and culture, and that we CHOOSE to be like this. Also - they deny that trans men are men, contrary to what most trans men know to be true.And they have campaigned for 40 years against us having rights. There was even a TERF submission to the recent trans inquiry that was full of lies about Trans women.

Where trans women are welcomed I've never heard of a cis man using it as an opportunity to gain unauthorised entry. I mean why would he want to?

 

[Sea Star]

Can you quote me an example. Do you yourself believe that this is what is happening? I'd prefer something a bit more than an online spat - practical examples of it happening irl?

I've seen some made up ones on a TERF website somewhere, but attempts to track down the source evidence met with nothing but brick walls.

 

[Sea Star]

TERFs say that they are shouted down and abused by trans women (whom - wrongly, in my opinion - they consider men).

TERFs say a lot of things that aren't true.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also, trans men are welcomed by TERFs into women's spaces. These are men with beards, and testosterone and penises, and they are welcomed into women's spaces by TERFs.

Well yes, this is the logical inevitability of Greer's position. To be consistent, she would surely also be telling trans female-to-male that of course they are still women.

Almost as if she hasn't thought this thing through...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just what this debate needed. The wisdom of Richard Dawkins.

A university is not a ‘safe space’. If you need a safe space, leave, go home, hug your teddy & suck your thumb until ready for university

link

 

[DotCommunist]

If you are a middle class woman, black person or gay you will always have had more privilege than a working class white male.

but theres the old 'pulled over for being black in a nice car' followed by 'protested strongly at your treatment' followed by 'police kick 7 bells out of you'. Theres some situations where the privilege of money and class isn't going to help at all.

 

[Sea Star]

but theres the old 'pulled over for being black in a nice car' followed by 'protested strongly at your treatment' followed by 'police kick 7 bells out of you'. Theres some situations where the privilege of money and class isn't going to help at all.

same with trans or homosexuality or being a woman - I think if you're rich and or powerful it can navigate you through the prejudice better (expensive lawyer, influential friends, media access, old school or uni network, etc) but it won't ever stop the oppression.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The single biggest indicator of privilege in our society is your bank balance. Is a rich woman oppressed for being a woman? I think oppression is a big word that should be used more sparingly.

 

[Sea Star]

The single biggest indicator of privilege in our society is your bank balance.

I don't think its that simple. sure, having a lot of money helps but I've seen upper class people with no capital whatsoever getting on better in life using their connections, and family background than people who I would consider to be reasonably wealthy.

Also - people can be excluded from the 'rich club' for not being the right sort - glass ceilings, institutionalised racism, not being from the right school, etc.

Very wealthy people still need the right sort of connections to stay wealthy or to become more wealthy and prejudice does surely exist at every level of society.

 

[Athos]

Can you quote me an example. Do you yourself believe that this is what is happening? I'd prefer something a bit more than an online spat - practical examples of it happening irl?

Only what I've been told and read. I can't say for definite whether they're true or not. If pushed, I guess that some are, but most aren't.

 

[Athos]

I think the change will be that those women who want to exclude us will become more and more irrelevent and be eventually considered to be the bigoted dinosaurs they are.

The thing is - cis women can be bullying and abusive the same as any cis man. So the risks associated with accidentally letting men into women's spaces is already there and already dealt with. If a cis man is claiming to be trans to gain entry to a women only space I also believe that it will become apparent very quickly, both to trans and cis women. If the TERFs were willing to let trans women police that side of things I believe that we would have a strong motivation to get it right.

Also, trans men are welcomed by TERFs into women's spaces. These are men with beards, and testosterone and penises, and they are welcomed into women's spaces by TERFs. Trans men are as likely to be aggressive/ abusive/ etc as cis men. So why the double standard? It just seems utterly dishonest to me and it seems that the decision to exclude trans women is an arbitrary one with a few problems that could be easily overcome.

The extrmeism is not equal I'm afraid. We mostly stand by our principle that we are women (there are trans women who buy into TERF arguments, but not many IME) and with that comes womanhood, complete and undiluted, or we're not women. The TERF position is that we are abusive men, in a state of constant sexual gratification, that we exploit or even "rape" women by stealing their bodies and culture, and that we CHOOSE to be like this. Also - they deny that trans men are men, contrary to what most trans men know to be true.And they have campaigned for 40 years against us having rights. There was even a TERF submission to the recent trans inquiry that was full of lies about Trans women.

Where trans women are welcomed I've never heard of a cis man using it as an opportunity to gain unauthorised entry. I mean why would he want to?

I hope things do change, and that the minority of women who don't welcome trans women will reconsider their views. Whether or not that's helped by dismissing their concerns as bigotry, and misrepresenting their arguments - for instance, contrary to what you say here, not all those who'd seek to exsclude trans women from women-only spaces believe the things you say, here - I'm not convinced.

 

[Sea Star]

Only what I've been told and read. I can't say for definite whether they're true or not. If pushed, I guess that some are, but most aren't.

If the TERFs believe that trans women pose a risk to other women in women only spaces then they really need to present the evidence for that. so far I've seen none.

 

[Sea Star]

I hope things do change, and that the minority of women who don't welcome trans women will reconsider their views. Whether or not that's helped by dismissing their concerns as bigotry, and misrepresenting their arguments - for instance, contrary to what you say here, not all those who'd seek to exsclude trans women from women-only spaces believe the things you say, here - I'm not convinced.

I haven't misrepresented any arguments here. I'm faced with this nonsense on a daily basis.

also I don't care if these women reconsider their views - I have enough faith in women that I feel TERF arguments are going to increasingly fail to gain any traction as we move forward. I can see it happening even in my little world. Unfortunately the trans exlusionary minority insist on making a nuisance of themselves and purposely use inflammatory language.

 

[Athos]

I haven't misrepresented any arguments here. I'm faced with this nonsense on a daily basis.

You have, becasue you've implied that all those who'd seek to exclude trans women from women-only spaces believe that all trans women are "are abusive men, in a state of constant sexual gratification, that we exploit or even "rape" women by stealing their bodies and culture, and that we CHOOSE to be like this." That's simply not true, and it does a disservice to your argument. I think a calmer, more empathetic dialogue would be more productive. But, I suppose that's easy for me to say, since I'm not on the end of the hurtful stuff that you have suffered.

 

[Sea Star]

You have, becasue you've implied that all those who'd seek to exclude trans women from women-only spaces believe that all trans women are "are abusive men, in a state of constant sexual gratification, that we exploit or even "rape" women by stealing their bodies and culture, and that we CHOOSE to be like this." That's simply not true, and it does a disservice to your argument. I think a calmer, more empathetic dialogue would be more productive. But, I suppose that's easy for me to say, since I'm not on the end of the hurtful stuff that you have suffered.

I said those were the TERF arguments. I've had a whole website dedicated to describing me in exactly this way.

You've clearly made the decision to not take any notice of my life experience and to believe the trans exclusionary arguments instead. so I'm putting you on ignore - I believe I've had to do that with you before.