Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
durruti02 said:
Sadly just a modern continuation of a practice that's at least 2000 years old, and it does relate insofar as some of those doctors, engineers etc have had to serve out indentures where they may not have even made a living wage. Given that, they're hardly going to be motivated to stick around, are they?, so immigration, at least in a minority of cases, but especially in the skilled sector, does have a "push" element.
ViolentPanda said:I've already said (about 200 posts ago) that as far as the argument goes you've proved that skilled labour movement adversely affects the developing world.
What you haven't done is proved the contention you made in the thread title.
cheers VP .. some are still arguing your second point!
but anyway your key bit is that i have not proved my contention that " .. immigration is currently based on 'pull'?"
i think you are wrong. I think i and others have clearly shown that in the current period the majority of immigration is due to neoliberal thatcherite forces pulling people in to do cheap labour that should be be done by people here and is not, either due to lack of training, or due to the shite wages being offerred.
as examples;
i have used the example of the nurses and poaching. which clearly show the pull factors at work.
i have illustrated the diferrences between immigration currently, when we have 3 million unemployed, which generally is for cheap labour ( and we have no argument here?) and say in the sixties when we had full employment and immigration was agreed by teh employers and unions ( generally)
i have illustrated the differrences between economic migration .. for better wages, which is a 'pull phenomena' generally, e.g the current groups of eastern europeans and safas and anzacs.
and 'push' migration the consequence of war, starvation, rape, oppression etc e.g the irish famine, the east african asians, the kurds and current iraqis.
knotted crucially posted the article that showed how in countries (e.g.scandanavia) with controlled economies, you do not get the same pull and hence there is lower immigration and also NOT coincidently, migrants have much better terms and conditions than they do here.
Against the OP i have seen NO evidence posted. I have seen it said regularly said that migration is purely down to individual choice. Some migration clearly is. Safas and aussies are on 'holidays' often and many eurpoeans do not need to move. But, and i see no evidence against this, the VAST majority of immigration into this country is about spivs and cowboys running deregulated businesses seeking to lower wage costs by attracting cheap labour from abroad in a way they can NOT do from this country.
I do owe you a debt VP as you rightly used to crticise me for too much opinion and too little facts. I have changed my ways for the better!
You must acknowledge that i no longer do this and in fact it is those who argue against me who fail now to provide any evidence
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:nino i said this a MONTH before you raised it!
If that is the case, then why did you produce those "scenarios". Why did you not believe what I said about housing lists, the points system and allocations?
I can make a very good guess as to why you chucked out those "scenarios" and why you refused to accept what I said.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:so justify your argument!! ..
we have here, or rather i have posted here, a whole series of references of unions and health organisation from nursing orgs to the WHO (FFS) ALL saying it is poaching ( with detailed research into motivations of those involved and the affects on both countries)
.. yet STILL you say it isn't!! again and as always with NO counter evidence!!!
sorry mate but that makes you look totally ridiculous!
who the fuck are you, in the face of all this evidence to deny it is poaching!!!
The word "poaching" is an example of an emotive use of language. The word was used to create an effect. It has done that.
You tend to employ two methods: the first is to demand "evidence" and the second is to deny that you have tampered with my posts. Let's look at your first method: why do you constantly demand evidence where none is required?To prove to yourself that I'm just being nasty for the sake of it. I want to get at the truth but unfortunately, you spend most of the time sliding around and hurling abuse in my direction.
I could ask the same question of you: who the fuck are you?
nino_savatte said:
who the fuck am i? somone a fuck site more constructive than you mate!!
specifically firstly i am the person who started the thread with a statement "Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?" as its title
second i have then posted a significant amount of research and references to back up this statement
third in the process and as part of the debate i have also refined what i think, though essentially i think that the OP is proved
you however have done nothing but whinge and whine and smear and accuse and look for conspiracies and plots.
You could use arguement backed by references and research to attempt disprove the OP , but you do not ..
you instead try to disprove the OP in the worst possible fashion by smearing the thread poster
nino_savatte said:
1)what is wrong with asking for evidence!!
2) i have NOT tampered with your posts .. indeed i am reporting you for stating continuously that i have
3) if you want to get to the truth why do you not stay on topic and deal with the OP? use references etc etc ??
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
durruti02 said:
I can't agree. "Poaching" is a "shorthand" for describing such practices, but it doesn't get to the heart of the matter, which is that a worker/footballer/nurse are all contracted to do a job, and as long as they serve out their legally obligatory notice period then taking another job is entirely legitimate.
A better term would probably be, given the practices of some employment agencies, "trawling".
ViolentPanda said:
so whats the long hand?
tbh i suspect a safa nurse will not loss out financialy from breaking a contract to move to the UK/USA or wherever
and no i think trawling is similar but differrent.
We are talking about situations where workers are being offerred more money. Sorry but the word everyone uses is poaching be it for nurses footballers or business men .. anothe word could be head hunt but that usualy relates to recruting for a specific job
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:because i / we are trying to get to the bottom of social housing allocation .. you have still not dealt with/answered these scenarios have you!?
Hang on, aren't you a "shop steward in social housing"? Those are your words - are they not? For someone who allegedly works in social housing, you either don't have a clue or you're lying. Which one is it?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:1)what is wrong with asking for evidence!!
2) i have NOT tampered with your posts .. indeed i am reporting you for stating continuously that i have
3) if you want to get to the truth why do you not stay on topic and deal with the OP? use references etc etc ??
1. You ask for evidence as means of trying to belittle your opponent. While the 'evidence' that you produce is often taken out of context to serve a particular use.
2. You have, stop lying.
3. You constantly slip and slide around, you tamper with my posts and you make false claims. I can't discuss anything with one so fundamentally dishonest.
4. You have no room to talk, since the truth is something that you go out of your way to avoid.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
The word that you are looking for is "sight" not "site".
I find this amusing
No, you have taken various bits of text and taken them out of context to support your 'argument'.
Another gem
If you can't get the better of your opponent, it always helps to smear them. I don't "look for conspiracies". That's another smear and it's a desperate ploy because the only folk who will believe this are your mates.
Nice bit of projection here
I can't take you seriously. You project, you cheat and you lie and then you have the cheek to play the innocent.
nino_savatte said:
1) rubbish .. i produce evidence to back up an arguement .. yuo never produce any evidence for anything ..
2) no i have not .. PRODUCE THE EVIIDENCE
3) i have NOT tampered with posts .. nor made false claims .. you constanlty say this .. produce the evidence
4)this does not make sense
p.s. reporting your post .. yet again making malacious unsubstantaited bullshit accusations
nino_savatte said:The word that you are looking for is "sight" not "site".
I find this amusing
No, you have taken various bits of text and taken them out of context to support your 'argument'.
Another gem
If you can't get the better of your opponent, it always helps to smear them. I don't "look for conspiracies". That's another smear and it's a desperate ploy because the only folk who will believe this are your mates.
Nice bit of projection here
I can't take you seriously. You project, you cheat and you lie and then you have the cheek to play the innocent.
1) great .. you laugh at a spelling mistake
2) of course i take bits out of text .. you and FE lecturer and you never seen this .. c qoutes are by definition 'out of context' .. but i ALWAYS now reference .. and p.s. there is a rule against doing big CnP
3) yes you do look 'what is behind' the post/er
4) if you did not take me seriously you would not have been following me around for months
5) "You project, you cheat and you lie" .. no evidence so post reported
editor said:
we should ignore other posters posting shite about us? .. without evidence?
I am sure you have had better things to do, but have a look how this thread has been disrupted through his behaviour.
i am, for right or wrong, trying to develop an argument about how the spivs who run this country are using and abusing migrants. He for some reason does not appear to agree ( though as he does not say what he thinks it is hard to say why) and instead does this constant accusations, insinuations and derailments. This is disrupting a series of threads i have started and contirbuted too. ( p.s. have i ever done this to him?? no). It has been noticed by many other posters, and even the sober Dennisr was last week trying to get nino to understand that his posting behaviour is negative, but with little success.
While i do appreciate the value of the ignore button, this sadly allows bullshit accusations to be unanswered, and so some people might read and accept them.
as i said nino has directly accussed me of tampering with his posts of cheating and of lieing .. with NO evidence. Sorry but this is unacceptable.
He either produces evidence or shuts up.
i would love nino to take part in these debates but he will not. (many people say he makes good and usefull contribuations on other threads and i take them at their word) Look for any evidence of him using references or qoutes or anything like this. He does not.
Ed, you, and those of you who started and have helped develop urban over the years, have done us all a grand service. nino in his behaviour on these limited number of threads is doing you and all of us a disservice
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
Either you work in housing or you don't. Which is it?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:we should ignore other posters posting shite about us? .. without evidence?
I am sure you have had better things to do, but have a look how this thread has been disrupted through his behaviour.
i am, for right or wrong, trying to develop an argument about how the spivs who run this country are using and abusing migrants. He for some reason does not appear to agree ( though as he does not say what he thinks it is hard to say why) and instead does this constant accusations, insinuations and derailments. This is disrupting a series of threads i have started and contirbuted too. ( p.s. have i ever done this to him?? no). It has been noticed by many other posters, and even the sober Dennisr was last week trying to get nino to understand that his posting behaviour is negative, but with little success.
While i do appreciate the value of the ignore button, this sadly allows bullshit accusations to be unanswered, and so some people might read and accept them.
as i said nino has directly accussed me of tampering with his posts of cheating and of lieing .. with NO evidence. Sorry but this is unacceptable.
He either produces evidence or shuts up.
i would love nino to take part in these debates but he will not. (many people say he makes good and usefull contribuations on other threads and i take them at their word) Look for any evidence of him using references or qoutes or anything like this. He does not.
Ed, you, and those of you who started and have helped develop urban over the years, have done us all a grand service. nino in his behaviour on these limited number of threads is doing you and all of us a disservice
Do I have to trawl through the threads to produce 'evidence' just because you want me to or because you have a palpable memory problem?
I told you when you edited my posts and you seem to have conveniently forgotten. What's the matter? Do you have a problem accepting responsibility for your own actions?
This post is another attempt to continue your long running smear campaign against me.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:1) great .. you laugh at a spelling mistake
2) of course i take bits out of text .. you and FE lecturer and you never seen this .. c qoutes are by definition 'out of context' .. but i ALWAYS now reference .. and p.s. there is a rule against doing big CnP
3) yes you do look 'what is behind' the post/er
4) if you did not take me seriously you would not have been following me around for months
5) "You project, you cheat and you lie" .. no evidence so post reported
You misread my post (once again) in order to 'big yourself up' here. You have taken bits of text out of context. Please pay attention to the word "context".
What does my former role as an FE lecturer have to do with anything? Or is it the case that you're trying to get in a sly dig? I used to pull up students all the time for plagiarising work and writing rubbish.
Oh and I have not been "following you around for months". Where is your evidence?
You're a gutless wonder and an intellectual pygmy. Go on, report that.
nino_savatte said:You misread my post (once again) in order to 'big yourself up' here. You have taken bits of text out of context. Please pay attention to the word "context".
What does my former role as an FE lecturer have to do with anything? Or is it the case that you're trying to get in a sly dig? I used to pull up students all the time for plagiarising work and writing rubbish.
Oh and I have not been "following you around for months". Where is your evidence?
You're a gutless wonder and an intellectual pygmy. Go on, report that.
1) you laughed at a spelling mistake .. simple as
2) but qoutes are always 'out of context'??? i really do not see your point here
3) it relates to my assertion that if you wish to make a point or accuse someone of something, you need to provide evidence. This is something lecturers spend a lot of time stating, hence me bringing up that you weer a lecturer
4) statistically it is clear .. i have not posted on any of your threads .. yet you appear on all my threads .. and indeed with hints and accusations and insinuations of 'something' behind .. and open accusations of being hard line anti-immigrationist. You even started a thread aimed mainly at me to back this up.
5) class ... yet again abuse
and yet again even though you say you disagree with what i say about the 'poaching' of health workers from the Third World , you have NOT provided ANY evidence to show that what is going on, is NOT poaching!
Crispy said:
so if i accuse you of being racist or imply that is so, on a thread, in public you just ignore it?
if i comeon to your threads regularly with accusations and insinuations that there is something behind ( BNP or racism) .. then you ignore that too?
crispy i do not think so. There is a place for ignore .. there is also the job of the Mods to stop people fucking up the site. This is what nino ( and others ) do.
You are well aware that nino has a rep for abusive behaviour and has been banned for it before. So why, when i bring this up, do you ignore this now?
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