durruti02 said:
That's the sixty-million dollar question.
Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
That's the sixty-million dollar question.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
I am not aware of it. Because every time I come onto one of these threads, all I see is a load of red-mist mud slinging. 480 posts of wordy bitching back and forth? Can't be fucked mate. Reported posts from both sides, with plenty of 'this person is bad for xxxx reason' and it's as clear as mud to me.durruti02 said:
And yes if you accuse me of being racist, I'll deny it once and then ignore it. I find that reaction breeds reaction and nobody gets anywhere.
If I wanted to 'stop people fucking up the site', I'd ban both of you, because on this thread you both have over 110 posts, compared to the next lowest of 50. I think it's a safe bet that the majority of those posts are bitching between you two.
So, I don't care who started it, because it's not feasible for me to know. So both of you shut up if you want this to end, cos I'm not holding your hands.
Crispy said:
I'm sorry to hear you say that, Crispy, as I always saw you as a moderate moderator and what you say sounds like an abandonment of principle.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
I'm a lazy moderator is what I am. The only weapon I have with any actual force is the ban button, and I hate using it, because I don't believe anybody should be denied access.Lock&Light said:I'm sorry to hear you say that, Crispy, as I always saw you as a moderate moderator and what you say sounds like an abandonment of principle.
Crispy said:
Well said, mate.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
1. I told you that I worked in housing and you demanded "evidence". Then you claimed to work in housing. So if you work in housing, then you know that what I said about the points system was correct. So why did you demand "evidence"?
2. Nonsense.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
More smears!!!! I have never been banned for "abusive behaviour" before. That is a lie.
I have not suggested that you were a "racist" either. That is another lie.
What you continually refuse to accept is that there is a great deal of xenophobia behind the calls for tighter immigration controls. What you also refuse to accept is the number and variety of anti-immigration myths in circulation; such as the commonly quoted myth that "immigrants are taking social housing over native born people".
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
1. You have deliberately sought to control the discourse on this forum with regards to the discussions on immigration
2. The word "context" should be easy to understand.
3. I have told you when you have either tampered with my post or deliberately misrepresented me. You refused to admit to it on each and every occasion. Instead, you accuse me of "abusive behaviour" in an attempt to get me banned.
4. You have posted on "my threads", please stop lying.
5. Wtf are you talking about? "Class"?
6. I said that the word "poaching" is an emotive use of language that is designed to cause an effect. Which part of that statement did you find hard to understand?
Crispy said:
ok .. i accept that reaction breeds reaction .. and i have tried many many tinmes to steer things back onto the OP .. but sorry i do not think it is right someone can disrupt threads in this way. I started a number of threads that nino objects to ( indeed he started a thread that stated clearly that 'Behind these threads lies the ugly face of racism.' http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=5799831&postcount=3 ) and he has spent a considerable amount of times attacking NOT teh OP but what he believes lies BEHIND the OP ( see again above thread)
i appreciate he has on opinion but to keep on and on with these TOTALLY FALSE AND UNSUBSTANTIATED accusations is unacceptable. As i have said it has driven people away from threads discussing how to confront the BNP or who we deal with the situation caused by the new type of immigration ( which quickly just for you, as it has been said mant times before, my reponse is NOT closed borders but that we aim for sustainable local employment )
it is incorrect, and NOT a safe bet, to accuse me of acting the same as nino. If you do get the time to look you will see that i have been posting many many references to try to back up the OP. Nino does not counter reference, just continues with his insinuations. You will also see me continuously saying to nino ' please please deal with the OP'.
i am not aware that i have EVER had a post reported .. i am fascinated! when i report nino ( and i have ONLY ever reported nino .. i see NO ONE else with his behaviour ) i have posted this on the thread. It has been when he siad i have ALZHEIMERS ( p.s. one of my best mates mum has this
) .. when he said i was like those who say migrants are here to fuck our women ., both nasty nasty little comments which these boards shoudl not accepti do not believe it is a Mods role to tell people to shut up without checking the facts. You already have shown that you are NOT fully understanding of what has been going on.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
durruti02 said:i do not believe it is a Mods role to tell people to shut up without checking the facts. You already have shown that you are NOT fully understanding of what has been going on.
It is rather like watching 30 seconds of Eastenders, and then being asked to make a fair, balanced and informed declaration about the right or wrong of what our Phil just said to Sharon, after all they've been through, or whatever.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
Why did I tell you that I had been a housing officer? I'd have thought that was rather obvious: I know, from working in housing, how the allocation system works. I have told you what any other housing worker would have told you. I don't have access to figures but I know how the housing allocation system works. You didn't like what you were hearing and asked me to produce "evidence". This is really another way of calling me a "liar" and no, I'm not being "paranoid".
All councils have this information on their websites btw. In fact, I even posted a link that explains how the points system works. You ignored it. I also gave two very clear examples of large scale temporary housing facilities that are under the remit if two local (named) authorities. Both of which I have worked for. What more 'evidence' could you possibly require?
In housing?
durruti02 said:
Regardless of personal risk, let me say that this comment could have been (and has been) many times made by me.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
But you refuse to accept that you are not entirely innocent and here, you try to smear me again.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Gmarthews said:Are you two still on at each other? I mean get a room and shag, it's the only way it'll end. Good luck
No thanks, I'd rather kiss a crocodile than shag durutti...besides, I don't swing that way.
nino_savatte said:
i am happy to accept that xenophobia is behind many cllas for tighter immigration controls, by the way which i do not support .. i suopport Trade union /community control i also accpet there are a myriad of myths around. A board like this is an ideal place to get the truth ..
but why have you said all this about me nino? you obviously DO think i am racist!!!
[url]http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=370[/url]
"You're far too obsessed with this subject to have anything other than sinister motives"
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...31&postcount=3
"Behind these threads lies the ugly face of racism."
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=529
"Dorito is always using language like "looking after one's own". The BNP and the NF also use that phrase"
( this is particularly silly as the point of this was too see the differrences between a racist backward reactionary 'our own' and a modern multiracial progressive 'our own' .. but as usual nino giot obsessed on the words )
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=588
"Do you actually know any Black people, durutti? I don't think that you do"
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=602
"I've heard the "some of my best friends are black" line before btw. You must think that I came down in the last shower. It's one of the worst cliches anyone could use in response to the question that I put to you."
"You're a liar, durutti. If you think that I'm going to believe you and change my mind on the basis of that cliched statement, you're a bigger fool that I first thought."
this went round in circles for a while till
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=618
"Originally Posted by durruti02
you see this is your problem .. your embarrssment not mine ... and so it is NOT a cliche cos sadly, for you,not for me, it actually is true .. so apology please .. and get back to the debate ffs p.s. muppet .. i only mentionned it cos you asked 'did i know any black people'! "
to which nino came back
"No, arsehole, it is not my problem, it is yours. You are the one who relies on shitty cliches like "some of my best friends are black". It didn't impress in the 70's and it sounds even more ridiculous today. I have nothing to apologise for, go fuck yourself."
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=104
"You support immigration controls and immigration controls are racist."
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=166
"You're not fooling anyone. You're a nasty wee xenophobe who doesn't like his ideas on immigration exposed for what they are".
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=175
"durutti has started over 16 threads on the subject of immigration in the last year or so. Perhaps you don't see that as obsessive but even a novice psychologist would recognise it as symptomatic of an obsessive disorder."
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=218
"You're not doing too well here, durutti. Your posts betray you as a right winger (You're no fucking Marxist, that's for sure)".
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=250
" ..you pin the blame on "immigration" and by extension, the immigrants themselves .."
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=379
"You're a nasty, embittered man who hasn't the guts or the honesty to admit that he isn't what he says he is."
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=204
"...your deeply held notion that Britain is being "swamped" by immigrants .."
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/sho...&postcount=355
"To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women."
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Your evidence against me is rubbish, durutti. What is shows is that you are an obsessive (go on report that).
durruti02 said:
I remember baldwin doing something similar to this before to point out to nino exactly what he said.
It didnt work then and the chances of working now are slimmer than size zero.
Nino is not capable of anything approaching rational debate or self criticism.
I think your wasting your time trying to engage him in debate and I wouldnt
worry too much what he says about you. He seems to hate most people.
durruti02 said:cheers VP .. some are still arguing your second point!
but anyway your key bit is that i have not proved my contention that " .. immigration is currently based on 'pull'?"
i think you are wrong. I think i and others have clearly shown that in the current period the majority of immigration is due to neoliberal thatcherite forces pulling people in to do cheap labour that should be be done by people here and is not, either due to lack of training, or due to the shite wages being offerred.
as examples;
i have used the example of the nurses and poaching. which clearly show the pull factors at work.
i have illustrated the diferrences between immigration currently, when we have 3 million unemployed, which generally is for cheap labour ( and we have no argument here?) and say in the sixties when we had full employment and immigration was agreed by teh employers and unions ( generally)
i have illustrated the differrences between economic migration .. for better wages, which is a 'pull phenomena' generally, e.g the current groups of eastern europeans and safas and anzacs.
and 'push' migration the consequence of war, starvation, rape, oppression etc e.g the irish famine, the east african asians, the kurds and current iraqis.
knotted crucially posted the article that showed how in countries (e.g.scandanavia) with controlled economies, you do not get the same pull and hence there is lower immigration and also NOT coincidently, migrants have much better terms and conditions than they do here.
Against the OP i have seen NO evidence posted. I have seen it said regularly said that migration is purely down to individual choice. Some migration clearly is. Safas and aussies are on 'holidays' often and many eurpoeans do not need to move. But, and i see no evidence against this, the VAST majority of immigration into this country is about spivs and cowboys running deregulated businesses seeking to lower wage costs by attracting cheap labour from abroad in a way they can NOT do from this country.
I do owe you a debt VP as you rightly used to crticise me for too much opinion and too little facts. I have changed my ways for the better!
You must acknowledge that i no longer do this and in fact it is those who argue against me who fail now to provide any evidence
bump for vp
becky p said:I remember baldwin doing something similar to this before to point out to nino exactly what he said.
It didnt work then and the chances of working now are slimmer than size zero.
Nino is not capable of anything approaching rational debate or self criticism.
I think your wasting your time trying to engage him in debate and I wouldnt
worry too much what he says about you. He seems to hate most people.
fair play
.. but it is NOT so much what he says through, but it his ability to derail and disrupt threads, that i hoped we could get sorted out ..
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
They also clearly illustrate "push" factors too though, do they not? The home nation's need for foreign exchange, the individual need to provide for family better than can be done on the salary offered by the home nation, etc etc.durruti02 said:
You've illustrated some differences. Don't get cocky.
Yes, immigration differs. It does so because the basis of the economy shifts, but that doesn't negate factors that propel people from their own country to others for work, in fact the cleavage between strength of economies makes them more visible.
Are you attempting to construct a moral case here? I've noticed that you're very keen to line all the "positive" factors on one side, and the "negatives" on the other.
Try putting yourself in the place of one of the people you're talking about, then ask yourself whether the way you're applying those factors is indeed accurate.
There's also, in many countries with controlled economies, a stronger strain of racism.
Have you not noticed that you're actually patronising those "immigrants" who aren't ANZACs or SA'ers by assuming that they wouldn't possibly have similar motivations to the white colonials?
If I were a Pole and you said that to me you'd have a glass sticking out of your neck.
I'd noticed.I do owe you a debt VP as you rightly used to crticise me for too much opinion and too little facts. I have changed my ways for the better!
"Must"?
Bit arrogant, don't you think?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
durruti02 said:
Couldn't be bothered, what with you being so busy trying to slip nino the tongue.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
India's economy was destroyed by the British in the 19th century, the effect: millions of Indian poor who had little choice but to accept the 'offer' of indentured work in one of the colonies.
The causes for migration don't change. The language changes but not the causes.
The causes for migration don't change. The language changes but not the causes.
nino_savatte said:
The causes though are varied. From outright slavery to economic pull.
And the way i have understood it,is durruti is making the case that migration has some nasty side effects that impact far more on the poor than the rich.
Which makes me wonder why you are so keen to portray him as some ignorant right wing fool.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Please pay attention
That's the way it should be.
That's the way it should be.
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