Why aren't the left doing better?

[Skimix]

To start...I'm fairly right wing, capitalist and free market before anyone accuses me of it

Given the banking system is fucked and had an enormous bail out from the government and in the US the car industry is looking the same. Tens of thousands are being made redundant. The current (not left wing at all govt) are introducing policies whereby people on benefits are being made to jump through incredible numbers of hoops to get what they're entitled to (despite my right wing tendencies I'm a firm believer in the NHS and social security). The govt are introducing more and more databases etc to track out every move (ok, that's more libertarian than left).

Capitalism is probably at it's weakest for many decades, why aren't the left getting more traction?

It's a serious question, I'm not trolling, promise!

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

Because too many anachists these days have got too much to lose .Mortgages,jobs, etc.

 

[scott_forester]

Labour are doing better, before all this the Tories had a double digit lead in the polls.

 

[Demosthenes]

Cause they're disorganised, schismatic, aren't united round a single manifesto, don't have a leader, and the media won't give them a platform. And you can't move the earth without a fulcrum.

Plus quite a lot of lefties want to get rid of free markets and replace them with a government controlled economy, which is basically a bit of a crap idea.
And for sound ideological reasons a lot of left-wingers can't abide the idea of being anti-immigration, which means they lose out on a lot of possible traction with their natural constituency.

tbh, I reckon with a convincing leader, a manifesto, and the opportunity to publicise it and debate it against the labour and conservative politicians, as if they were the real opposition, they'd convince a lot of people, who aren't happy with the status quo, labour or conservative, but it's a catch 22 situation, - they won't be treated by the media as the real opposition, unless they won enough seats in an election to make them the real opposition, and they can't win enough seats in an election without being publicised by the media as a credible and important political movement. And for some reason there aren't any proper left-wing newspapers, and apparently when there were, they failed.

People are often a bit stupid tbh, and don't care much about what's right, so long as things seem to be Ok.

 

[Spion]

Ah, that's where the left has been going wrong all this time - we're not free market anti-immigrationists. We should join the tories then?

 

[Demosthenes]

Ah, that's where the left has been going wrong all this time - we're not free market anti-immigrationists. We should join the tories then?

Idiot. I've already had this discussion with you. You're full of shit.

I think I explained my position pretty well in this thread http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=245720&page=12

I think a good read of the discussion will show why I can't be bothered to discuss it with you any further.

 

[Azrael]

Plus quite a lot of lefties who want to get rid of free markets and replace them with a government controlled economy, which is basically a bit of a crap idea.

This.

You also have to distinguish the cultural Left and the economic Left. The cultural Left are in the ascendant, big time. Gay rights, anti-racism, anti-tradition, anti-individual responsibility, anti-nationalism, anti-elitism; pro-EU, pro-personal license, pro-fair trade, pro-environmentalism, and especially pro-comprehensive education.

The craftier economic Leftists are probably using cultural Left ideas to forward their agenda by stealth. And others wouldn't even want a Leftist economic agenda, but are unconsciously cultural Leftists in habits of mind, behaviour and speech.

(Incidentally, I realise that the phrase "cultural Left" is, strictly, nigh-on-meaningless. That's what comes of defining your political compass by the seating arrangements of the Assemblée Nationale Constituante.)

 

[Skimix]

This.

You also have to distinguish the cultural Left and the economic Left. The cultural Left are in the ascendant, big time. Gay rights, anti-racism, anti-tradition, anti-individual responsibility, anti-nationalism, anti-elitism; pro-EU, pro-personal license, pro-fair trade, pro-environmentalism, and especially pro-comprehensive education.

The craftier economic Leftists are probably using cultural Left ideas to forward their agenda by stealth. And others wouldn't even want a Leftist economic agenda, but are unconsciously cultural Leftists in habits of mind, behaviour and speech.

(Incidentally, I realise that the phrase "cultural Left" is, strictly, nigh-on-meaningless. That's what comes of defining your political compass by the seating arrangements of the Assemblée Nationale Constituante.)

If I didn't know better I'd think you were taking the piss

 

[Azrael]

You think the metro elite don't broadly hold the views I listed?

 

[Demosthenes]

For Azrael: I'm quite persuaded by the well known criticism of traditional leftism, the kind that's against free markets and wants to replace them with a government controlled economy.

The criticism being that if you want the government to control the economy you'll need to establish a bureaucracy to do so, which will inevitably end up stultifying and corrupt, and unresponsive to real needs.

But I do think there's a case for legislating that the only enforceable type of contract ought to be on the model of a paypal style contract, involving a one-off exchange of goods for money, monitored by a third party who holds the money until the goods are received. (leaving aside labour contracts which are another matter. )

This would mean that the type of contracts that are the essence of capitalism as we know it, contracts involving renting money, or renting land or houses, contracts that are made far into the future, - when it's clear that both parties can't be certain that the contract can be kept, would be unenforceable.

Your stuff about the cultural left sounds a bit superficial, - I don't see how you can lump all those strands together into a big basket and call it the cultural left, - there are aspects that are good there and aspects that are bad, - I suspect you're loosely going after the kind of stuff you think is PC.

tbh I reckon the cultural left is not in the ascendancy. If the cultural left was in the ascendancy we'd be a much more tolerant, less anal, rule-governed society, we'd tolerate drugs, we'd be experimenting with different forms of education, and allowing a lot more input and choice from children, and we'd be encouraging of lifestyle alternatives to 9-5 job, rent and mortgage.

 

[Skimix]

You think the metro elite don't broadly hold the views I listed?

Oh, whoops...you're not then? I'm bad.

 

[Azrael]

But I do think there's a case for legislating that the only enforceable type of contract ought to be on the model of a paypal style contract

Hmmm, interesting idea. I'm far from fundamentalist regarding capitalism in its current form, so maybe your idea is a way forward. Would have to give it more thought.

As I've said elsewhere, I believe sucessful economics stems from evolution rather than design, and don't for a minute think that capitalism in its current form is some endpoint in history.

Your stuff about the cultural left sounds a bit superficial, - I don't see how you can lump all those strands together into a big basket and call it the cultural left, - there are aspects that are good there and aspects that are bad, - I suspect you're loosely going after the kind of stuff you think is PC.

tbh I reckon the cultural left is not in the ascendancy. If the cultural left was in the ascendancy we'd be a much more tolerant, less anal, rule-governed society, we'd tolerate drugs, we'd be experimenting with different forms of education, and allowing a lot more input and choice from children, and we'd be encouraging of lifestyle alternatives to 9-5 job, rent and mortgage.

As I admitted above, "cultural Left" is a clumsy term I use for want of anything better. I wouldn't say it's synonymous with "politically correct" (a creepy bit of thought-censorship disliked by some who follow a generally CL agenda). More the prejudices and assumptions of the metropolitan elite.

Neither is Cultural Leftism synonymous with permissiveness, as your drugs example shows. But look at how and why drugs are opposed: because they harm you. The suggestion that seeking chemical oblivion is a sinful activity is absent. All the anti-drugs propaganda focuses on harm reduction/bad consequences.

A fundamental plank of what I reluctantly term Cultural Leftism is in education. Fifty per cent of the population in universities. Progressively easier exams. Selection on ability forbidden. In short, egalitarianism. The Tories have dumped their lukewarm support for grammar schools in search of votes. That's why I think the agenda is in the ascendant.

 

[Demosthenes]

Neither is Cultural Leftism synonymous with permissiveness, as your drugs example shows. But look at how and why drugs are opposed: because they harm you. The suggestion that seeking chemical oblivion is a sinful activity is absent. All the anti-drugs propaganda focuses on harm reduction/bad consequences.

.

That's a fair point, but also, in my view it's a superficial reading. Yes, it's true that anti-drugs justifications primarily make the case that drugs harm you, but possibly the justifications that are made aren't the same as the real causes behind them. .

Actually there are some drugs that if taken in moderation, in the right sort of way, don't harm you, and aren't addictive, and the real reason they're opposed is precisely because a lot of people havie a strong emotional moral reaction that seeking chemical oblivion is a sinful activity, - because that's how the people who've never taken these drugs conceptualise them.

In fact of course, the idea that ecstasy or LSD give you chemical oblivion is ludicrous to anyone who's taken them, - oblivion is just the last thing they do. Heroin gives oblivion, and possibly that's part of the root of its darkness.

Thankyou. - I enjoy discussing things with you.

 

[Azrael]

Actually there are some drugs that if taken in moderation, in the right sort of way, don't harm you, and aren't addictive, and the real reason they're opposed is precisely because a lot of people havie a strong emotional moral reaction that seeking chemical oblivion is a sinful activity, - because that's how the people who've never taken these drugs conceptualise them.

Good point also, but I'd argue that's an unconscious hangover. There are degrees of Cultural Leftism, as with most things. I doubt most politicians are even aware of the ideological roots of prohibition, or that narcotics were once available over the counter.

So no, drugs politics doesn't slot neatly into a Cultural Leftist hole. Most things in life aren't that simple. But just witness the huge support "harm reduction" has amongst the metropolitan elite. Those that argue for legalisation generally argue for prescription as well.

Me, I see drug taking as a morally-neutral activity. If you fund your own habit and don't frighten the horses (or nick their tranquilizers) it's none of my business, or the state's, what you do with your own body. But that's by the by.

 

[Blagsta]

This.

You also have to distinguish the cultural Left and the economic Left. The cultural Left are in the ascendant, big time. Gay rights, anti-racism, anti-tradition, anti-individual responsibility, anti-nationalism, anti-elitism; pro-EU, pro-personal license, pro-fair trade, pro-environmentalism, and especially pro-comprehensive education.

The craftier economic Leftists are probably using cultural Left ideas to forward their agenda by stealth. And others wouldn't even want a Leftist economic agenda, but are unconsciously cultural Leftists in habits of mind, behaviour and speech.

(Incidentally, I realise that the phrase "cultural Left" is, strictly, nigh-on-meaningless. That's what comes of defining your political compass by the seating arrangements of the Assemblée Nationale Constituante.)

Jesus christ

 

[Demosthenes]

Hmmm, interesting idea. I'm far from fundamentalist regarding capitalism in its current form, so maybe your idea is a way forward. Would have to give it more thought.

As I've said elsewhere, I believe sucessful economics stems from evolution rather than design, and don't for a minute think that capitalism in its current form is some endpoint in history.

The thing is current economics stems from evolution rather than design, and that's why it's pretty fucked up. Our economic system exists as the most successful systems for growth in a world that seemed large enough that we'd never run out of space to grow into, and so was for practical purposes infinite. Quite literally, economic systems geared for growth outcompeted economic systems not geared towards growth. Unfortunately, it is a finite world, and so now we need to redesign our economic system for sustainability, and try to engineer them so that it's not an economic catastrophe when the economy stops growing.

 

[DotCommunist]

this thread has opened my eyes

 

[treelover]

all big words above , for me it is quite simple:, they have abandoned fighting for the most vulnerable, etc, in favour of identity politics and a faux internationalism, which because of the lefts weakness can only be a gesture.When they return to the former and rebuild their base, then the latter will become stronger and more effective.

 

[Maggot]

Because there is no left and right anymore. These ideas are outdated.

 

[DotCommunist]

thread keeps on giving

 

[Demosthenes]

Ok, Maggot then replace right v left with -capitalists vs anti-capitalists-.

 

[isitme]

i think expecting a left wing party to do really well in the next election or something is where a lot of people are going wrong. there will never be any meaningful change through parliment or the EU or whatever because it is set up to prevent that.

left wing ideas like working cooperatives, community action, finding ways around relying on money etc are doing better than they were 10 years ago and I bet they will benefit from this recession a lot as well which is the only way a real alternative can really come about imo

 

[treelover]

This is the Lecturers union internal activist bulletin, doesn't it speak volumes about the priorities of much of the Left

'Exciting news! Have a look at today’s UCU Activists List digest:

1. FW: Association of University Teachers in Gaza calls for BDS
2. Re: Crisis in Gaza
3. Jenna Delich was right to take down Harry’s Place
4. Fw: Support Karen Reissmann: 8.15 - 9.30am, Monday 26 Jan, first day of ET, support rally, corner of Bridge St / Parsonage St, Legal Defence Fund, Fundraising Social, Friday 23 Jan, 8pm to late
5. The debate on Gaza
6. who broke the ceasefire
7. Re: The debate on Gaza
8. RE: who broke the ceasefire
9. RE: who broke the ceasefire
10. RE: who broke the ceasefire
11. Fwd: Gaza: Why you should demonstrate on 10 January
12. Re: who broke the ceasefire
13. RE: Fwd: Gaza: Why you should demonstrate on 10 January
14. RE: who broke the ceasefire
15. Demo on Saturday - please read
16. Re: Demo on Saturday - please read
17. RE: Crisis in Gaza
18. Re: Demo on Saturday - please read
19. Re: Demo on Saturday - please read'

 

[DownwardDog]

Plus quite a lot of lefties want to get rid of free markets and replace them with a government controlled economy, which is basically a bit of a crap idea.
And for sound ideological reasons a lot of left-wingers can't abide the idea of being anti-immigration, which means they lose out on a lot of possible traction with their natural constituency.

I don't think the actual policies themselves matter at all. People can be made to believe any old shit is good for them with enough repetition of an artfully crafted message. The problem for the left (or anyone else proposing anything other than a slight variation of the status quo) is getting enough people to take any notice in an environment where people are completely saturated with information.

 

[poster342002]

all big words above , for me it is quite simple:, they have abandoned fighting for the most vulnerable, etc, in favour of identity politics and a faux internationalism, which because of the lefts weakness can only be a gesture.When they return to the former and rebuild their base, then the latter will become stronger and more effective.

Yep. add to that the social composition of the enitre left seems to be almost completley made up of the same middleclass people who's role within the system is to boss, bully and generally make working class people's lives as unpleasant as possible. As long as this combined with what you say ablove remains the case, the left will continue to be an irrelavance at best.

The worst thing is that the existance of this type of leftism is serving to discredit leftwing ideas as a whole and is preventing the rise of a better left.

 

[audiotech]

Yep. add to that the social composition of the enitre left seems to be almost completley made up of the same middleclass people who's role within the system is to boss, bully and generally make working class people's lives as unpleasant as possible. As long as this combined with what you say ablove remains the case, the left will continue to be an irrelavance at best.

The worst thing is that the existance of this type of leftism is serving to discredit leftwing ideas as a whole and is preventing the rise of a better left.

 

[Demosthenes]

all big words above , for me it is quite simple:, they have abandoned fighting for the most vulnerable, etc, in favour of identity politics and a faux internationalism, which because of the lefts weakness can only be a gesture.When they return to the former and rebuild their base, then the latter will become stronger and more effective.

I'm not sure which big words above you were thinking of, --

the thing is, while I kind of agree with you that their priorities are identity politics and faux internationalism, which doesn't help - fighting for the most vulnerable isn't the left's only priority, and won't achieve political success by itself. The most vulnerable people is, what? 10 to 20 percent of the electorate. What alternative does the left offer that's going to benefit a majority of people, everyone,? What alternative do they offer at all. ?

 

[Steve Booth]

Corruption cynicism and apathy

Capitalism is probably at it's weakest for many decades, why aren't the left getting more traction?

In my opinion, the in-fighting and all the factions are not attractive.

The Left carries a lot of baggage in terms of its past failures.

People think that 'All politics is corrupt'.

But also, there is a lot of cynicism and apathy in people, they no longer believe that any solution offered them, or any party can solve the problems.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

To start...I'm fairly right wing, capitalist and free market before anyone accuses me of it

Given the banking system is fucked and had an enormous bail out from the government and in the US the car industry is looking the same. Tens of thousands are being made redundant. The current (not left wing at all govt) are introducing policies whereby people on benefits are being made to jump through incredible numbers of hoops to get what they're entitled to (despite my right wing tendencies I'm a firm believer in the NHS and social security). The govt are introducing more and more databases etc to track out every move (ok, that's more libertarian than left).

Capitalism is probably at it's weakest for many decades, why aren't the left getting more traction?

It's a serious question, I'm not trolling, promise!

Briefly, I think its because

1) The establishment / capitalist press cant stomach to discuss any aternatives so many people have a limited understanding of the alternatives.

2) many aspects of socialism is a bit clapped out as well

3) traditional left factionalism

4) the FPTP election system is a big disadvantage to gaining electoral traction.

More positively, I think more people are turning and will turn to community based solutions for the economic mess. These are as likely to be green in charachter as traditional left.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

If the left does not get back community action it will be too late.
The bnp are becomming more and more involved in their communities at the grass roots level.
Theres still time to turn it around but Im afraid we wont . We are too busy protesting about what we dont want instead of building what we do want.