Why are Urban liberal leftists/@s so racist/prejudiced against non immigrants??

[tbaldwin]

Greenman..... "evidence to the contrary" what kind of evidence is that?

Have you read what ive said on fair trade?International Labour rules? Reparations? The consequences of taking skilled workers from developing nations?

Exactly what evidence are you talking about?

GREENMAN>>>>>ANSWER THE QUESTION>

 

[stevepinker]

why would that happen? sorry, but thats just a daft answer.

A decently unionised workplace would make it all but impossible for such expoitative practises as you have described to take place.

A union for builders is never going to happpen and the work force is in no place to start asking for one,It would be yet another stick to beat the "lazy work shy" uk born worker

 

[belboid]

Well, there already is one - UCATT has been rather screwed since its heydey, but it is not without power still.

And if unions and the idea of solidarity are out the window, what do you suggest as the response? Everyone for themselves?

 

[stevepinker]

Well, there already is one - UCATT has been rather screwed since its heydey, but it is not without power still.

And if unions and the idea of solidarity are out the window, what do you suggest as the response? Everyone for themselves?

So when my mate gets a new job on a site that will be around for maybe 2months with a mainly polish work force... when should he setup the union
Before or after they give him the job

being self empolyed he would be kicked out before the day had ended
I can't see the polish being to keen

I worked on the building for 6years and have never heard of the UCATT

 

[belboid]

The poles have a pretty good history of TU activity, including in this country. Never said it would be easy, but otherwise, get used to being shat on.

you didnt say what your answer/preferred solution was.

 

[greenman]

What a long winded question????????? I think that govts do bend to public pressure.....The vast majority of people in the UK are against large scale immigration and rightly so....The govt will catch up in time.....

So the agents you have in mind are the government - New Labour or the Cameronites, who are going to "bend to public pressure"?

The people i hope to influence on urban75 are people who want to see a better world and look at the lefts orthodoxy on many subjects and realise its a dead end..

And so you hope to convince urbanites that nulabour or the conservatives can issue in a workers paradise of jobs for all, once the immigrants have been barred/deported ?

I would like to see a new left that is democratic,honest and genuinelly trys to reflect the views and aspirations of ordinary people....

As has been said before, do you think there are any broadly held 'views and aspirations' of 'ordinary people' that are misconceived or ill-informed? Are the majority always right? Do you agree with the majority on every opinion poll on every subject? This is not to argue that democracy should not reflect the majority view, but it is to argue that it is not somehow 'morally wrong' to disagree. Indeed it is an essential of honesty that an honest left will disagree with a majority on some issues, and campaign to change people's views - there were times when slavery had majority support, remember. (i.e where the majority view is wrong/right wing) To pretend you agree with the majority on everything, all the time, is fundamentally dishonest! Have you seen High Noon?

I dont think im trying to influence the govt............But i think all political parties eventually have to reflect on where they are so out of step with public opinion...Unless like the greens,respect,BNP etc they only hope to reach a few people....

You think political parties ignore where a majority disagree with them? It is probably the major part of politics to try and convince a larger number of people of your views. Without this there would be very little political change.

 

[tbaldwin]

And so you hope to convince urbanites that nulabour or the conservatives can issue in a workers paradise of jobs for all, once the immigrants have been barred/deported

No.....

 

[tbaldwin]

As has been said before, do you think there are any broadly held 'views and aspirations' of 'ordinary people' that are misconceived or ill-informed? Are the majority always right? Do you agree with the majority on every opinion poll on every subject? This is not to argue tha democracy should not reflect the majority view, but it is to argue that it is not somehow 'morally wrong' to disagree. Indeed it is an essential of honesty that an honest leftwill disagree with a majority on some issues, and campaign to change people's views - there were times when slavery had majority support, remember. (i.e where the majority view is wrong/right wing) To pretend you agree with the majority on everything, all the time, is fundamentally dishonest! Have you seen High Noon?
As ive said before....There are views that i hold myself taht would be unpopular....It doesnt mean they are neccesarily wrong......Or that i should stop holding them......BUT if we seek to impose our unpopular views on people we go down a very shitty slope......And thats what im arguing is the biggest issue....

I dont believe in any kind of benevolent dictatorship.....Sadly the vast majority of people on Urban75 at the end of the day do....
They oppose ordinary peoples views on crime and migration....describing them as reactionary,ignorant etc etc....
A very shitty slope......

 

[stevepinker]

The poles have a pretty good history of TU activity, including in this country. Never said it would be easy, but otherwise, get used to being shat on.

you didnt say what your answer/preferred solution was.

have you ever worked on a building site because most of the polish i know dont pay tax. with no disrecpect to them

I would ask that we slow the numbers of people coming into this country

 

[belboid]

So, its an unlawful employer then? IN which case it isnt the number of people coming into the workforce that is really the problem, is it?

 

[durruti02]

Talking the talk isn't walking the walk though. Uncle Adolf (mis)appropriated the language of socialism for his own ends.

Durutti02 seems to think that if someone talks his language they're the same as him, I think that anyone that naive deserves a swift kick in the arse.

that mate is pathetic .. you should be fking ashamed .. so now i am a nazi???

 

[durruti02]

says the man whose way of opposing the bnp is to adopt all their issues

now fuck off liar

have you ever looked at the BNP website you muppet??

and er what am i lieing about???

 

[belboid]

wtf are you on about now? Are you trying to say the BNP arent as obsessed as you about immigration, and how bad it is for workers in this country?

And you've lied about my positions umpteen times on these threads now - once you have totally lost the argument that is.

 

[durruti02]

at least half of whom who really are little englanders, tho they include some decent TU language & issues

p.s. so spectrezine are BNP too??? open your eyes man ..


http://www.spectrezine.org/europe/Denny5.htm

http://www.spectrezine.org/index.html

and another article ..

http://www.spectrezine.org/Editorial/Poland.htm

Counting the Cost
June 12, 2006 16:30 | by Steve McGiffen
A warning that Poland and its neighbours are beginning to suffer critical labour shortages as a result of the outflow of mostly young, educated and often skilled workers to unskilled but better-paid jobs in Britain and western Europe.... Trade unions in the west need to get together with those in the new member states to organise co-ordinated pressure on their own governments to force a change of direction.

 

[belboid]

I've no idea who they are, the only names I recognise are left liberals. And I didnt accuse you of 'being bnp' - i said you have adopted the same issues as them, and agreeing that such immigration is 'bad for britain'. That you think you can twist that to an anti-bnp stance just shows how divorced from reality you are.

 

[tbaldwin]

I've no idea who they are, the only names I recognise are left liberals. And I didnt accuse you of 'being bnp' - i said you have adopted the same issues as them, and agreeing that such immigration is 'bad for britain'. That you think you can twist that to an anti-bnp stance just shows how divorced from reality you are.

Durrutti and myself are not arguing anything of the sort....Thats an argeument between Nationalists.....Both of us a re Internationalists who argue that Migration is a Class issue....That working class people are the ones who lose out most....

 

[belboid]

but you and durutti arent actually arguing te same thing when it gets to the bottom line - he still opposes immigration controles, yet you saupport them (and the big fuck off border patrol needed to implement them too, I assume)

 

[greenman]

TUAEUC, CAEF, Spectrezine and their leading lights in the CPB/European Communist Parties orbit are economic nationalists. Believers in the old fashioned 'socialism in one country'. They are correct in their opposition to Euro-federalism and neo-liberal capitalism, and the 'free movement of labour and capital' that these entail, but their solutions and reliance on the right-wing labour bureaucracies to defend us are ludicrous. Any country which, in the current conditions followed the CPB prescription of economic nationalism would be reduced to the isolated and impoverished status of North Korea before you could utter the words 'capital flight'.

Therefore, I stand by my original statement that the sort of movement that is needed to impose significant restrictions on the ability of the neo-liberal ruling class to exploit free movement of capital and labour is one that would make these nationalistic immigration arguments irrelevant and very quickly raise larger issues of social and economic power and state authority.
In the meantime the media and the authorities will wind up or down the immigration 'debate' as they see fit in the interests of capitalist stability. (Wait for it all to cool down once something has been cooked up to make it look like the government is concerned about the threatened Romanian influx, and measures taken to minimise any possible negative labour market distortions from the viewpoint of the major capitalist interests) The Daily Express/Daily Mail readers will be kept on a 'low heat' ready to roll them out as the angry ballast of public outrage when another tactical tack on migration is required.

It is an illusion to imagine that the immigration debate is 'fair', balanced or independent of the interests of big business and state elites. It follows logically from this that it is an illusion that some kind of sensible 'debate', or even the whispered advice of union barons in the ears of politicians is going to change the situation considerably - at the most (as with policy on crime and education) you will get some draconian playing to the gallery that chiefly impacts on vulnerable sections of the international working class, and weakens the capacity of workers to take action across national boundaries by setting them up against each other.

We live under oligarchy and plutocracy masquerading as 'democracy' - if ever democracy does become more likely the velvet gloves very quickly come off. Putting faith in the current batches of politicians in control of any European country to act in the long term interests of the international working class is foolish to say the least......

 

[tbaldwin]

but you and durutti arent actually arguing te same thing when it gets to the bottom line - he still opposes immigration controles, yet you saupport them (and the big fuck off border patrol needed to implement them too, I assume)

Your right belboid...Durruti is a bit of a Liberal on the subject....

 

[durruti02]

I've no idea who they are, the only names I recognise are left liberals. And I didnt accuse you of 'being bnp' - i said you have adopted the same issues as them, and agreeing that such immigration is 'bad for britain'. That you think you can twist that to an anti-bnp stance just shows how divorced from reality you are.

oh come on .. smear by association .. the oldest trick in the book .. i used it with digby jones ( not nice ) .. you have used it with the BNP .. you will admit this not good ..

and agreeing that immigration is 'bad for britian'

what the FUCK where when how would i EVER say anything like this !!

do you really not understand what i am saying is workerist NOT nationalistic??

 

[durruti02]

TUAEUC, CAEF, Spectrezine and their leading lights in the CPB/European Communist Parties orbit are economic nationalists. Believers in the old fashioned 'socialism in one country'. They are correct in their opposition to Euro-federalism and neo-liberal capitalism, and the 'free movement of labour and capital' that these entail, but their solutions and reliance on the right-wing labour bureaucracies to defend us are ludicrous. Any country which, in the current conditions followed the CPB prescription of economic nationalism would be reduced to the isolated and impoverished status of North Korea before you could utter the words 'capital flight'.

Therefore, I stand by my original statement that the sort of movement that is needed to impose significant restrictions on the ability of the neo-liberal ruling class to exploit free movement of capital and labour is one that would make these nationalistic immigration arguments irrelevant and very quickly raise larger issues of social and economic power and state authority.
In the meantime the media and the authorities will wind up or down the immigration 'debate' as they see fit in the interests of capitalist stability. (Wait for it all to cool down once something has been cooked up to make it look like the government is concerned about the threatened Romanian influx, and measures taken to minimise any possible negative labour market distortions from the viewpoint of the major capitalist interests) The Daily Express/Daily Mail readers will be kept on a 'low heat' ready to roll them out as the angry ballast of public outrage when another tactical tack on migration is required.

It is an illusion to imagine that the immigration debate is 'fair', balanced or independent of the interests of big business and state elites. It follows logically from this that it is an illusion that some kind of sensible 'debate', or even the whispered advice of union barons in the ears of politicians is going to change the situation considerably - at the most (as with policy on crime and education) you will get some draconian playing to the gallery that chiefly impacts on vulnerable sections of the international working class, and weakens the capacity of workers to take action across national boundaries by setting them up against each other.

We live under oligarchy and plutocracy masquerading as 'democracy' - if ever democracy does become more likely the velvet gloves very quickly come off. Putting faith in the current batches of politicians in control of any European country to act in the long term interests of the international working class is foolish to say the least......

interesting stuff .. i totally agree with most of your criticisms of these types .. but what should the left do now though??
what sort of movemnet do you talk of and how would it deal with this issue ..apologies if i missed you posts before

 

[belboid]

mm, you have also used it with the bnp - a frequent refrain being 'no wonder they are doing so well..this is what we need to revive the left..' - so, aqs they used to say at school, you started it.

as to being 'bad for britain' - british workers would have been more accurate, fair enmough, but that has been your argument - that without the workerist positions you (tho not baldwin) argue for, british workes will be worse off.

you're trying an old old pseudo-trick, wrapping up workerism with some nationalism to be almost all things to all people.

 

[durruti02]

A .. mm, you have also used it with the bnp - a frequent refrain being 'no wonder they are doing so well..this is what we need to revive the left..' - so, aqs they used to say at school, you started it.

B as to being 'bad for britain' - british workers would have been more accurate, fair enmough, but that has been your argument - that without the workerist positions you (tho not baldwin) argue for, british workes will be worse off.

c .. you're trying an old old pseudo-trick, wrapping up workerism with some nationalism to be almost all things to all people.

A .. oh come on .. i mean it .. i am at heart a old school lefty ( sold SW for over 8 years) .. and the bnp rise is a disaster ..

B/C simply .. no .. that is not the case .. i am using this issue to show HOW detached the left have become .. and honmestly i think it is a disaster .. got to go now ..

 

[tbaldwin]

mm, you have also used it with the bnp - a frequent refrain being 'no wonder they are doing so well..this is what we need to revive the left..' - so, aqs they used to say at school, you started it.

as to being 'bad for britain' - british workers would have been more accurate, fair enmough, but that has been your argument - that without the workerist positions you (tho not baldwin) argue for, british workes will be worse off.

you're trying an old old pseudo-trick, wrapping up workerism with some nationalism to be almost all things to all people.

belboid sorry to jump in there...But i do argue that some UK workers will be worse off...Cos they are competing for Jobs and Housing....Its just that its not my main concern...I think the much bigger issue is the effect of taking skilled workers from poorer countries which is a shameful thing to support.

 

[belboid]

Yes, I recognise you say that too, and even tht that may be your main point.

Its the first ime I've noticed you say 'some' british workes tho

 

[tbaldwin]

Yes, I recognise you say that too, and even tht that may be your main point.

Its the first ime I've noticed you say 'some' british workes tho

I think ive fairly consistently said that migration has a very different effect on different classes in the UK and argued that most Black and Asian people in the UK are firmly against mass migration.....
You may have missed a few of my posts though......
Not yet a criminal offence....but....im working on it....

 

[ViolentPanda]

that mate is pathetic .. you should be fking ashamed .. so now i am a nazi???

Are you fucking dim? I'm beginning to think so.

I haven't accused you of being a nazi, you precious twat. I gave an example of someone appropriating socialist language to their own political ends, and I used an example most people could relate to.

Understand?

If you're naive enough to think that just because someone uses socialist language then that actually makes them a socialist then not only do you need a kick in the arse, you could probably do with being locked up for your own good for being so gullible.

 

[greenman]

interesting stuff .. i totally agree with most of your criticisms of these types .. but what should the left do now though??
what sort of movemnet do you talk of and how would it deal with this issue ..apologies if i missed you posts before

Well, one thing the left should not do is give 'left cover' to the profoundly reactionary, right wing and racist nature of what passes for the "immigration debate" in the UK. This means recognising that both immigration and immigration controls can be used against the working class. It means the left should not either line up with the nationalist right talking about dangers to 'our culture' through swamping, or of 'foreigners stealing our jobs', nor with the liberal capitalist left talking about how immigration is essential to the smooth working of the economy, or how it creates a marvellous cosmopolitan consumer culture.. The left should see the migration debate for what it is - a debate between liberal and reactionary wings of the ruling class about how best the labour market can be managed, policed and developed at the same time as maximising profits. Actual real individual workers and dependents - either long term resident or migrant, or those remaining in 'donor' countries never appear in this debate, their needs, wants and desires are absent, except as cynical ammunition for whichever capitalist faction.

The old watchwords - unity is strength are key in what kind of movement is required. We must have an international movement which encourages understanding, links and organisation amongst working people and activists in progressive movements. You are right that at local level we must have community and workplace organising that acquires the power to ensure social needs are met and services and facilities are not overburdened. The original conception of the IWCA as an answer to both neo-liberal new labour and scapegoating nationalist BNP in working class communities is relevant here. A particular concern must be the stress that the neo-liberal free movement of labour and capital puts on the environment, natural resources and sustainability. But the outlook must never be narrowly localist - just as at national level it must not be nationalist. The movement must have an international outlook.

We must know our enemy, the capitalist class and their paid propagandists - their major power is our isolation from each other and their ability to set one group of us against another. Defensive struggle is necessary but not enough, the aim has to be to build a counter-power. The need at present is not so much for a Party or single organisation across Europe and the rest of the world, as for a common understanding and solidarity. If existing movements, groups and community and workplace organisations could begin to coalesce and network around a project of base level organising, direct democracy, wealth redistribution, sustainable development and localisation of production we would be moving in the right direction. The hands of capital must be tied, and its room for manouevre progressively reduced by an alliance that fights on all available fronts - community, workplace, political, cultural, local, national and international. A space must open up where the real needs, wants and desires of working people can be shared to create understanding and solidarity - where real people, (not frightening invaders or xenophobic nationalists) step onto the stage of history.
At least that is what I would like to see as an ecosocialist.....

 

[Julie]

A totally shallow comment.....Why dont you actually think about who benefits most and least from mass migration?

And why don't you just think.

 

[nino_savatte]

And why don't you just think.

Because he can't. He would rather issue back handed compliments like "you're so ooo clever" in an attempt to mask his own anti-intellectualism.

<sits back and waits for the hole-in-the-heid gang to emerge from the shadows>