Why are Urban liberal leftists/@s so racist/prejudiced against non immigrants??

[The Black Hand]

Migration is not such good news for people competing for jobs and housing.....

I must say that this falls for the very same middle class agenda that you critisise others of. That there is an even playing field/equal opportunities for jobs/housing, and all people compete for it fairly, is capitalist ideology, encouraged by the media.

It is NOT reality. Racism DOES exist in this country, there are jobs for who you know rather than what you know, as there is housing.

There maybe less than when the Windrush peoples came over after WWII, but it is still virulent and obnoxious.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've just worked it out who it is you remind me of durutti!

Frank fucking Chapple & Eric Hammond.

Hardly surprising, is it? I've been telling his mate balders that he's old skool labour right for ages.

 

[treelover]

Thats one hell of an accusation, care to back it up? anyway whats the track record of marxism, not very good is it?

I've just worked it out who it is you remind me of durutti!

Frank fucking Chapple & Eric Hammond.

 

[Pigeon]

above all it is a racialistion of politics .. class is what matters ..

An interesting* concept from someone who starts up a new anti-immigration thread on virtually a daily basis.

Still, on the whole, a piss-poor piece of trolling from a piss-poor trollop. 0/10. Must try harder.

*interesting-lite, at any rate

 

[Pigeon]

durruti02:

Are you ever going to answer the points raised about immigration controls being innefective, and only worsening the social status of immigrants, therefore allowing bosses to use immigrants as a pool of flexible labour which can be played off against the rest of the working class?

Rather than characterising anybody and everybody who disagrees with you as thinking that white, working class people are inherently racist and reactionary ...

Is he fuck. Not unless Polly Toynbee writes something about it, anyway.

 

[kyser_soze]

kyser actually suggested that until everyone has emigrated to everywhere else only then can we have revolution!!

Hmm, I think I may have made a point about how emigration can only help the establishment of a similar, globalised working class that are aware of everyone else on the planet in the same boat as them and that all are vaguely aware that heading in the same direction as their fellows in other countries would be useful, I certainly don't remember saying it was a pre-requisite.

And any culture/society that doens't have immigration into, especially an island nation, will eventually atrophy and die without fresh ideas and cultures occassioanally both competing and contributing to it.

 

[Pigeon]

Hmm, I think I may have made a point about how emigration can only help the establishment of a similar, globalised working class that are aware of everyone else on the planet in the same boat as them and that all are vaguely aware that heading in the same direction as their fellows in other countries would be useful, I certainly don't remember saying it was a pre-requisite.

There you go, muddying the waters with your tiresome "facts" again.

Just like a liberal.

 

[Dissident Junk]

English food can be lovely. A good stew and dumplings (not made with lard) can be a dream on a cold winter's night.

I suspect the birth rate might be going down because the cost of living in the UK is very high, and it is becoming expected that people stay in education until their earlier twenties, coming out with a lot of debt. People are losing maybe four years of income (university), plus possibly another another year of income due to payment of debt (going by an average of £10K owed after college, though this payment is spread over maybe five/six years). As much as commentators maintain that graduates earn more over a lifetime, I don't see this phenomenon much in my own life.

I do, however, see an obsession amongst white middle-class liberals about people they perceive to be 'non-English' - consider the fuss the G has made over Polish migrants recently, the articles fawned over these young people.

I do think that old ideas about the white working class still resonate: that they choose to live the way they do, so their predicament is their own fault; that they are somehow uncivilised; that they are inferior and uneducated (and this is why they don't go to the Tate ). Even when working-class people make money, they employ 'mock Tudor mansion' snobbery.

I tell ya: scratch a middle-class English person and underneath, there's a Parish board waiting to sneer.

 

[treelover]

They are at it again in the Guardian, its really seems that for liberals being white and particularly white and working class is a problem to be solved by diversity. This really is a form of casual racism, whatever others on the board say.


DJ said
I do, however, see an obsession amongst white middle-class liberals about people they perceive to be 'non-English' - consider the fuss the G has made over Polish migrants recently, the articles fawned over these young people.

Over the years this diversity grew, with eastern Europeans and South Africans moving in for the cheap rent. There had already been a significant flight further east to Essex by the white English, possibly as a reaction to more ethnic minorities moving in. Today a white person's accent heard on a Walthamstow bus is more likely to be Slovak than cockney.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1852666,00.html

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thats one hell of an accusation, care to back it up? anyway whats the track record of marxism, not very good is it?

That said, what was Eric Hammond's "record" like?

Pretty unremmiting fear-mongering and licking of boss arse that often went against the long-term interests of his members and of other trade unionists, as I remember.

Durutti and his mate balders' "policies" certainly fit the first of those characteristics.


BTW, people often hold Scargill up as an exemplar of what was worst about over-powerful union bosses, but Hammond took the biscuit by miles, and what he did at Wapping buttfucked several generations of workers, all in one go.

 

[In Bloom]

durruti02:

Are you ever going to answer the points raised about immigration controls being innefective, and only worsening the social status of immigrants, therefore allowing bosses to use immigrants as a pool of flexible labour which can be played off against the rest of the working class?

Rather than characterising anybody and everybody who disagrees with you as thinking that white, working class people are inherently racist and reactionary (there's a lot of it about, and it does piss me off no end, but its nowhere near as ubiquitous as you make out), why not actually adress some of the arguments put forward.

Just a thought.

Apparently this isn't worth replying to, what with it not confirming the predjudices of a few posters here that it was directed at.

If anybody wants me, I'll be at the bar.

 

[Mallard]

Yes, it's as if the middle class left can't accept that Britain existed for thousands of years before the mass immigration from outside Europe that occurred during the 20th century.

Ignorance is a deliacte fruit. Vikings/Normans/Saxons ring any bells?

Surely people should be asking why the birth rate is so low in this country that we have to rely on immigrants to make up the numbers. Also, why are we having to recruit Indian doctors or Filipino nurses to work in the NHS. You can't tell me that there aren't enough people in this country who want to earn good money in these jobs?

Cheap labour perhaps? The inability of capitalism to fit people to purpose?

To me, it's the fault of 1980's neo-liberalism which destroyed the British working class and ran the education and Nhs into the ground. New Labour have dutifully followed the Tories neo-liberal agenda.

The liberal left jump on the bandwagon of any so-called "progressive" idea, even when it is clearly an instrument of the ruling class to destroy the working class.

These middle class groups feel a sense of superiority over the "lumpen-scum" white working class, and yet feel they are revolutionary class warriors!!!

Any examples here? This really doesn't make any sense!

During the Cold War, an astute American observer commented that "racism here helps Communism everywhere" because it fans the flames of radical elements within capitalism who start to see a common cause with the then other superpower of the Eastern bloc. This gave birth to the bourgeois anti-racism movement, which groups like UAF are little better than.

Which ten year old A Level text book was this?

 

[JonnyT]

On "the forgotten/abandoned working class thesis":

The problem is it's a term/argument used by very different people and for very different reasons. At one extreme, it's at the core of racist, BNP thinking - and used purely to support racist campaigns: 'look at them, getting your stuff, while the establishment does nothing'

At the other extreme, there is a valid argument about the nature of town hall liberalism and the form that the politics of multiculturalism over the last 20 years. Rather than ethnicity being the basis for an anti-racist politics, its drifted into a highly managed and mangerialised professional discourse. It becomes an allocation system in which, if you can establish your 'identity', you get a slice of the pie. Very, very different from the kind of anti-racist politics that could have been rooted in a class politics and even an anti-capitalism. It's also an allocation system in which the white working class have little purchase. Its almost impossible to start asking for houses/community centres/cultural provision if you are not regarded by those in power as having a valid cultural identity. All of this somehow gets worse when wrapped up with other socioligical discourses around postindustrialism and even the 'whats the use of men' argument - the notion that the working class is losing its place/purpose in the world. In turn, its a class that increasingly sees itself represented in the media only as a problem or a dinosaur (chavs, pregnanat teens, asbo-ees).

With all that background its not surprising that there's been something of a backlash (and by that i don't mean a backlash against 'immigrants' - I mean the backlash against institutionalised forms of multiculturalism and liberalism) - on these boards and elsewhere. Problem (obviously) is one of steering any kind of class politics - which says some of the above - away from racism and zero sum game politcs. If it emphasises class politics, its got to also say that black workers are part of that class.

Of course what's tricky is that both racist 'pro-working class' positons and IWCA/anarcho working class politics have in mind somehing of the same phenomena - the multiculturalism industry and liberal/lefty commentators [and by that i'm not remotely suggesting that the iwca is 'like' the bnp - just that they come at a similar phenomena - but from a profoundly different position]. To me, that means people have to tread pretty carefully when doing this kind of politics - and make clear who the real enemy is.

*applause*

that's prob the best and most concise analysis I've come across of "multiculturalism". cheers

 

[audiotech]

I attended a meeting on cohesive communities recently and "sharing resources" was a main theme.

 

[Wilf]

*applause*

that's prob the best and most concise analysis I've come across of "multiculturalism". cheers

.

 

[Star Dove]

The answer's simple:

If you live in a shit hole with no opportunities you should move to somewhere better.

Anyone who tells you to stay where you are is a cunt who's oppressing you.

 

[durruti02]

durruti02:

Are you ever going to answer the points raised about immigration controls being innefective, and only worsening the social status of immigrants, therefore allowing bosses to use immigrants as a pool of flexible labour which can be played off against the rest of the working class?

Rather than characterising anybody and everybody who disagrees with you as thinking that white, working class people are inherently racist and reactionary (there's a lot of it about, and it does piss me off no end, but its nowhere near as ubiquitous as you make out), why not actually adress some of the arguments put forward.

Just a thought.

in bloom dear .. are you blind or just deliberatly obtuse??? ..

i have NEVER once on these threads argued for immigration controls ..

i have argued that w/c people who currently live here should fight to stop the bosses using and abusing immigrants to cut wages and undercut w/c organisation .. and that they should not be afriad to state that the current wave of immigration is being organised/encouraged to do this

i absolutely agree immigration controls are used to abuse/control immigrants .. however i also absolutley believe that the lefts/@ total emphasis on immigration controls (as opposed to immigration being used by the bosses) is wrong and has spectactuarly backfired and led to increased reaction from w/c peoples who currently live here

and i do believe there is an inherent prejudice against w/c people by much of the left/@ .. who think w/c people are racist /reactionary /sexist blah blah blah who fail to fight for revolution wheras immigrants are somehow differrent, cooler, more radical blah blah blah !!

and p.s. of course i generalise!

 

[durruti02]

I've just worked it out who it is you remind me of durutti!

Frank fucking Chapple & Eric Hammond.

grow up bellboy ..


" ... Frank Chapple, was a rabid free-marketeer long before Margaret Thatcher and won control of the union on a mission to expunge what he coincidentally described as 'the Communist and Trotskyist-based opposition in the union'. Between them, Chapple and his protégé, Eric Hammond, gleefully took up the calling as scourge of the left, dealing mercilessly with opponents from inside their own union. The EETPU supported an aggressive pro-nuclear stance, privatisation of major state industries (like the Post Office, for example) and signing up to single-union 'sweatheart deals' with the bosses, all the way through to collaboration with media magnate Rupert Murdoch against the print unions during the Wapping dispute..."

you are so wide of the mark in some of your posts its embarressing

 

[durruti02]

Thats one hell of an accusation, care to back it up? anyway whats the track record of marxism, not very good is it?

as i say mate they are so fking out of touch really its embaressing

 

[durruti02]

Is he fuck. Not unless Polly Toynbee writes something about it, anyway.

oh dear .. another one

.. if you actually read the threads you would have seen ( as i say in really to our friend algal bloom ) that i agree absolutly that immigration controls are to abuse and control immigrants .. and also that i have never ever once argued for state immigration controls .. so dear 0/10 for reading and comprehension

 

[durruti02]

Apparently this isn't worth replying to, what with it not confirming the predjudices of a few posters here that it was directed at.

If anybody wants me, I'll be at the bar.

as you may note from my your and my post rate, mate, i am not on urbans quite as much as you .. more things to do like

see reply below ..

 

[durruti02]

The answer's simple:

If you live in a shit hole with no opportunities you should move to somewhere better.

Anyone who tells you to stay where you are is a cunt who's oppressing you.

so you would give up your job to someone so the boss can bring in cheap labour???

 

[118118]

so you would give up your job to someone so the boss can bring in cheap labour???

But, would you demand that people who are looking for work be forced to stay in "their" country???

I dunno if anyone can argue that an end to immigration would not be in the individual interests of some people. But, are they the sorts of people we ought to be bothered about!?

 

[durruti02]

But, would you demand that people who are looking for work be forced to stay in "their" country???

no thats not the point .. the point is that currently even though there are 3 or 4 million without work the bosses and state are ACTIVELY recruiting/encouraging people to come to this country to do jobs at WAY less than the going rate

the poles who have come over are not destitute at home .. they do not NEED to come here .. in fact their standard of living ( as oppossed to just income/ wages ) is not that much worse than here .

[.. see wikipedia ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

PPP purchasing power parity .. i.e. costs related to incomes as opposed to just per capita income when poland looks poor ]

i would love to see large scale cultural exchanges thru colleges and workswops ( councils in the old days USED to do this with their twinned towns)

BUT what is going on is not about cultural exchange but purely about cost cutting for the bosses and m/c

 

[118118]

Sorry, so you are saying that immigration is not in the individual interests (I'm not talking, really, about socialism) of anyone but the ruling class?

 

[durruti02]

Sorry, so you are saying that immigration is not in the individual interests (I'm not talking, really, about socialism) of anyone but the ruling class?

of course it is people individual interests .. as it is in workers stopping wage cuts .. i am not saying it is wrong for poles to want to come here .. it clearly benefits them .. but it is also not wrong for workers to stop their bosses USING poles to undercut wages

and though that yes .. fundamentally what is happenning now benefits most the employer and rulling class

 

[118118]

of course it is people individual interests .. as it is in workers stopping wage cuts .. i am not saying it is wrong for poles to want to come here .. it clearly benefits them .. but it is also not wrong for workers to stop their bosses USING poles to undercut wages

But, according to you, it is wrong for workers to demand immigration, despite the fact it is in their interests.

Why is it wrong for one group to demand what is in their individual interests, and not wrong for a different group to demand what is in their individual interests?

National loyalty?

 

[TonkaToy]

The answer's simple:

If you live in a shit hole with no opportunities you should move to somewhere better.

Anyone who tells you to stay where you are is a cunt who's oppressing you.

Who is telling people to stay where they are?

 

[CharlieMuffin]

Never met one

 

[durruti02]

But, according to you, it is wrong for workers to demand immigration, despite the fact it is in their interests.

Why is it wrong for one group to demand what is in their individual interests, and not wrong for a different group to demand what is in their individual interests?

National loyalty?

doh i have never said it was particularly wrong for people to want to emigrate ..

i have said all along this is about rebuilding communites and w/c strength here ..
immigration helps neither the polish w/c nor the uk w/c


and maybe you will answer the Q .. would you give your job up or encourage your colleagues to do likewise if the boss was cutting wages and getting in poles to do the jobs? you would you fight to keep your terms and conditions??