Why anarchism as a method of action doesn't work.

[SpineyNorman]

because you are not talking about anarchism or Athos's position, you're obsessed with the SWP as usual

I think this might be just a teensy weensy bit hypocritical. I can't check whether vp has ever started a thread on the swp (posting from my phone) but I certainly don't remember him ever doing so. In fact the only times I can even recall him mentioning them have been on threads about anarchism started by you. And there are fucking loads of those (again, posting from my phone so I can't give a number). Might I respectfully suggest that it's you who is obsessed with anarchism, not vp who is obsessed with the swp.

And as a Marxist I'd also like to point out to my anarchist friends that most of us are not like rmp3, in fact we find him as annoying as you do. Maybe more so, since he and the likes of him act to discredit us better than any opponent could ever hope to (and regretably there are plenty of people who call themselves marxists whose ideas are similar to his)

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

My sect is better than your sect.

Fucking splitters.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Oh right, the usual, 'he aint a real anarchist' arguement. OK

Seriously fuck off son.

It's the they are representative of the group they are critiquing but fine place it into your own terms so you can dismiss actual action being taken from your keyboard warrior bullshit.

You and all like you attempting to ascribe ideals to other groups from the outside are scum.

Plain and simple.

One day, and I pray its soon you'll be beaten to death by mobs.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'm not interested in that strawman arguement. Never have been. Anarchism's obsession with the individual, which is constantly leading you into this kind of martyrdom.

You post nothing but straw man arguments.

I do mean nothing. You vaccines waste of DNA

 

[eoin_k]

I'm not interested in that strawman arguement.

Wheras your argument lacks the structure to construct a straw man.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

See my cock...

It's bigger than your cock...

 

[Athos]

don't you think this something disingenuous not dealing with the issue and just making up shit that me in the SWP are supposed to believe?

I don't even know what your issue is!

Whether anarchists like it or not, there is a democratic will of the majority.

There is nothing 'democratic' about a position which tramples over the legitimate freedoms of comrades.

Those who concentrate on the actions of the collective,those who see the emancipation of the working class being the act of the working class, seek to work with the working-class, even when the will majority goes against what they believe would be best for the movement as a whole [ie the real world me]. SOME Anarchist's obsession with individual conscience and individual initiative leads them more often than not to spit their dummies when the vote goes against them,, fuckoff and do their own thing, instead of trying to work with people.

I don't seek to work with the working class; I am working class. And the feedom in which I believe isn't the individulism to do exactly as I please, in my own interests; instead, it is simply the freedom to act according to my own conscience and judgement (informed but not dictated by comrades), to act in the way which I believe will further our shared aims.

This leaves them exposed as individuals, easy meat for the state to pick off and throw in jail, something I regret as I consider you comrades.

Perhaps this would be more believable if it wasn't for the constant sniping.

in the case of Seattle, the actions of the anarchists gave this day an excuse to bash the movement as a whole. The movement as a whole paid the price for your ''freedom' imo.

People will always bash the movement. What's depressing is that others can't see through this crude divide-and-rule tactic, and actually adopt it themselves.

What would you have achieved without the anarchists, anyway?

And, for the umpteenth time: what makes you sure that those people you referred to in the OP were anarchists?

 

[Athos]

according to one anarchist "The occupy movement is a genuine attempt to create the institutions of a new society in the shell of the old''​

The 'Occupy' movement is 'a genuine attempt to create the institutions of a new society in the shell of the old' [AFP]​

Sorry, I forgot that we'd elected him Grand master of all the Anarchists.

 

[Athos]

Seriously. Resistances or any of you prize pussyholes what the fuck have you done....

Nothing. Fuck all. I posted my wadical thoughts on the interwebs. Fuck off. You're all fucking jokes..

Like you've got a fucking clue what people here have or haven't done. Clown.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Like you've got a fucking clue what people here have or haven't done. Clown.

Nothing.

That's the point.

Still I'm sure you have a massive penis

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

What I do know is they aren't involved in the actions they are decrying now on this thread or others son.

 

[eoin_k]

Garfield it is nice to hear that you have a big one. I'm glad for you. You seem very proud of it. But again I think you might have the wrong thread. You could try the naked one or perhaps something in Nobbing and Sobbing.

 

[Athos]

Nothing.

That's the point.

Still I'm sure you have a massive penis

Seriously. It's ridiculous to suggest that nobody on this thread has done anything more than post on the internet.

 

[TremulousTetra]

What I do know is they aren't involved in the actions they are decrying now on this thread or others son.

If you actually read i decried the actions of the socialist James Connolly, I wasn't involved with that either. Does that mean I cant discuss it?

 

[eoin_k]

If only the Irish Citizens' Army had had the benefit of your strategic leadership.

 

[eoin_k]

And what exactly was the straw man argument I was supposed to be using - I wasn't seriously suggesting that occupy London was a secret front set up by the SWP CC. You do realise that?

 

[Athos]

If only the Irish Citizens' Army had had the benefit of your strategic leadership.

They'd have sold a lot more papers.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Seriously. It's ridiculous to suggest that nobody on this thread has done anything more than post on the internet.

Cool. What precisely have you done insupport of the occupy movement you can be vague in case the Feds are watching but I'm sure you can say where you've helped out this cause. If not then your protests are simply adding to the cacophony of pointless noise.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

If you actually read i decried the actions of the socialist James Connolly, I wasn't involved with that either. Does that mean I cant discuss it?

You can discuss what you want. You usually do. It doesn't mean your opinion has any ficking weight as part of this current movement.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Hmmm.
snip
Fucking pathetic.

because of what happened earlier, I thought I would explain why I like your post.

Your post in my experience of most people I have spoke to on here do seem to reflect the majority of anarchist position to progressive left. ' modern left and right wing thinking is nothing more than sides of the same coin.'

it's a bit like the link I gave to the anarchist talking about the occupying movement, and his position about 'Marxism' just wanting to take over the state and wield it on behalf of the working class, even though the SWP have said many times "the state is not like a car you cant get in and drive in any direction you want' and 'the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of the working class'. It just amazes me how often anarchists completely must understand, and misrepresent what is actually said, and then jump to the conclusion that the the SWP, and in this case the whole socialist revolutionary left, are just as bad as the ruling class.

 

[Athos]

Cool. What precisely have you done insupport of the occupy movement you can be vague in case the Feds are watching but I'm sure you can say where you've helped out this cause. If not then your protests are simply adding to the cacophony of pointless noise.

Listen, mate - I do my bit.

Though, as it happens, I haven't done anything particularly significant for the Occupy movement. So what? I haven't disparaged it, either.

I have no beef with Occupy, or with you. i just think it's silly to come on here to call people 'prize pussyholes' and say that they've done fuck all other than than post on the internet.

 

[Athos]

because of what happened earlier, I thought I would explain why I like your post.

Your post in my experience of most people I have spoke to on here do seem to reflect the majority of anarchist position to progressive left. 'modern left and right wing thinking is nothing more than sides of the same coin.'

it's a bit like the link I gave to the anarchist talking about the occupying movement, and his position about 'Marxism' just wanting to take over the state and wield it on behalf of the working class, even though the SWP have said many times "the state is not like a car you cant get in and drive in any direction you want' and 'the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of the working class'. It just amazes me how often anarchists completely must understand, and misrepresent what is actually said, and then jump to the conclusion that the the SWP, and in this case the whole socialist revolutionary left, are just as bad as the ruling class.

I don't think the SWP is just as bad as the ruling class.

I think it's worse!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Listen, mate - I do my bit.

Though, as it happens, I haven't done anything particularly significant for the Occupy movement. So what? I haven't disparaged it, either.

I have no beef with Occupy, or with you. i just think it's silly to come on here to call people 'prize pussyholes' and say that they've done fuck all other than than post on the internet.

I'm just fed up of people attempting to liable it as this type of movement or to claim it s not doing shit as they would have it done the point if it has any political motivation at all is to have a place a movement where the dialogue can be heard and to then move forward.

It's nothing more than a provisional council, to hear people on this thread and others talk about it it's failed as a movement of resistance and change because a its not what they would, do whilst not actually being involved themselves. These are the pussyholes I refer too. Unless you identify as one of them then you shouldn't take offence if you do identify with that characterisation then get involved or cease bitching.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hmmm. From the facts on the ground the olsx are not anarchists or commies, just people with a shared sense of injustice and some well meaning ideas. The majority of them if they HAVE to be classified are Buddhists.

What is dismaying is that both the mainstream media and the collective wisdom of the so called political left seem to relish taking potshots at them and ascribing labels to them to disassociate themselves and their creeds from them.

TBF, the only person who's done that w/r/t OLSX is RMP3, and he's pretty much an exemplar of the "wisdom" of an element of the "political left".

Rarely have I seen anything which approaches a fair representation of those people involved from any of the groups reporting around them. Let alone anything like a supportive or positive encouragement.

To the mainstream they are dirty unwashed junkie hippies and to the wadical left they are unfocused jumped up petit borgious.

The mainstream have several agendas which get fulfilled by implying that protesters are some sort of "marginals", and the "wadical left" usually find anyone who doesn't implicitly or explicitly follow their agenda to be "unfocused". As for the bourgeois label, who knows whether that's true unless they actually know the people being labelled?

Both are so thoroughly entrenched in their ideas of what the olsx and the wider occupy movement should be and how it should behave to have bothered to take the time to find out the truth of the matter.

Many on here are frankly showing there naked prejudices as much as the mainstream.

The brutally sad thing is that as a result it only goes to show that modern left and right wing thinking is nothing more than sides of the same coin.

Time to become relevant or fuck off as the dinosaurs of another age. Cos at present both groups look like apologists who are intent on maintaining the status quo as it feathers there own nests.

Fucking pathetic.

The mainstream view (at last as represented by the media) wants to denigrate and neutralise protest, part of the "left" view wants to co-opt any protest as fuel and fodder for a revolution that they will lead, with the protesters as willing ground-troops. Of course it's pathetic, not least because it's unrealistic.

 

[Athos]

I'm just fed up of people attempting to liable it as this type of movement or to claim it s not doing shit as they would have it done the point if it has any political motivation at all is to have a place a movement where the dialogue can be heard and to then move forward.

It's nothing more than a provisional council, to hear people on this thread and others talk about it it's failed as a movement of resistance and change because a its not what they would, do whilst not actually being involved themselves. These are the pussyholes I refer too. Unless you identify as one of them then you shouldn't take offence if you do identify with that characterisation then get involved or cease bitching.

Since I don't identify with the pussyholes, no offence taken.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

because of what happened earlier, I thought I would explain why I like your post.

Your post in my experience of most people I have spoke to on here do seem to reflect the majority of anarchist position to progressive left. ' modern left and right wing thinking is nothing more than sides of the same coin.'

it's a bit like the link I gave to the anarchist talking about the occupying movement, and his position about 'Marxism' just wanting to take over the state and wield it on behalf of the working class, even though the SWP have said many times "the state is not like a car you cant get in and drive in any direction you want' and 'the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of the working class'. It just amazes me how often anarchists completely must understand, and misrepresent what is actually said, and then jump to the conclusion that the the SWP, and in this case the whole socialist revolutionary left, are just as bad as the ruling class.

None of which hs anything to do with the occupy movement. Nothing.

It has to do with your disaatisfaction at the state of left wing movements and frankly that's of little consequence to anyone other than your idea of self identity. No one cares. Except you.

It certainly has fuck all to do with the many hundreds in the uk or thousands across the world trying hard in the face of these very emotionally crippled activists to move the debate forward on all sides.

Practical application is more important than posturing about idiologies of different sects.

 

[ViolentPanda]

don't you think this something disingenuous not dealing with the issue and just making up shit that me in the SWP are supposed to believe?

Whether anarchists like it or not, there is a democratic will of the majority.

No, there's a will of the majority that may be or may not be "democratic".

Those who concentrate on the actions of the collective,those who see the emancipation of the working class being the act of the working class, seek to work with the working-class...

What a fucking joke. You don't even see the contradiction in seeing "the emancipation of the working class being an act of the working class" and then following with that with crap about "working with the working class" (my emphasis). You're not part of us, you're part of a bunch of cocksucking leeches who want to leech off of us.

...even when the will majority goes against what they believe would be best for the movement as a whole [ie the real world me]. SOME Anarchist's obsession with individual conscience and individual initiative leads them more often than not to spit their dummies when the vote goes against them,, fuckoff and do their own thing, instead of trying to work with people. This leaves them exposed as individuals, easy meat for the state to pick off and throw in jail, something I regret as I consider you comrades.in the case of Seattle, the actions of the anarchists gave this day an excuse to bash the movement as a whole. The movement as a whole paid the price for your ''freedom' imo.

Where's your "movement" ever got people, hmm? Seems like we've achieved a fuckload more as disparate strands of protest , than as stooges being stage-managed by the swappies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

according to one anarchist "The occupy movement is a genuine attempt to create the institutions of a new society in the shell of the old''​

The 'Occupy' movement is 'a genuine attempt to create the institutions of a new society in the shell of the old' [AFP]​

You're still having problems with the reality that because one anarchist offers an interpretation doesn't mean that all anarchists find that interpretation tenable.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

TBF, the only person who's done that w/r/t OLSX is RMP3, and he's pretty much an exemplar of the "wisdom" of an element of the "political left".

Sadly they are not alone. If it was one rabid muppet it would be fine but not.

I'm sure if I was a swappie I'd name names at this point as being traitors to the revolution!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Since I don't identify with the pussyholes, no offence taken.

Then we are all friends again.