Why anarchism as a method of action doesn't work.

[Pickman's model]

It would be more promising if ResistanceMP3 answered your point.

He's a shitferbrains twat with the political nous of an aphasic slug. But even he realises he's on a loser here

 

[danny la rouge]

It would be more promising if ResistanceMP3 answered your point.

He's not going to do that.

He may post a link to an audio clip of Chomsky, though, to show he knows what libertarian communists are.

 

[SpineyNorman]

He's not going to do that.

He may post a link to an audio clip of Chomsky, though, to show he knows what libertarian communists are.

Or he might link to this: http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=616 lol

 

[manny-p]

Or he might link to this: http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=616 lol

Ahh one of them!

 

[DotCommunist]

sell the party, build the paper

 

[manny-p]

If you really want to bait him, throw in some references to the Makhnovischina and maybe even Kronstadt.

No cos he might say the Makhnovischina were anti semites and that the Kronstadt sailors were traitor counter revolutionaries that 'regretably' had to be crushed in order for the revolution to stay on course!

 

[manny-p]

sell the party, build the paper

tried and tested

 

[SpineyNorman]

No cos he might say the Makhnovischina were anti semites and that the Kronstadt sailors were traitor counter revolutionaries that 'regretably' had to be crushed in order for the revolution to stay on course!

Quite right comrade, quite right.

To nick frogwoman's avatar, I love Kronstadt

 

[Athos]

No cos he might say the Makhnovischina were anti semites and that the Kronstadt sailors were traitor counter revolutionaries that 'regretably' had to be crushed in order for the revolution to stay on course!

Wow! It's almost as if we've been here before.

 

[manny-p]

Wow! It's almost as if we've been here before.

History keeps repeating itself comrade.

 

[Athos]

History keeps repeating itself comrade.

So does Rmp3.

 

[SpineyNorman]

History keeps repeating itself comrade.

Are you sure you don't mean "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce"?

I'll let this one pass, comrade, but if you don't improve it will be the re-education camp for you. Marxism is a science, not a game to be taken lightly.

 

[manny-p]

Are you sure you don't mean "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce"?

I'll let this one pass, comrade, but if you don't improve it will be the re-education camp for you. Marxism is a science, not a game to be taken lightly.

Please excuse my laziness comrade. I will gladly go to the re-education camp if need be. The party knows best!

 

[Athos]

Keep to the script; it goes like this:

Limited admiration of some aspects of anarchism. This is to avoid being labeled as divisive, despite the sentiment which immediately follows: a condemnation of some aspect of anarchism. Often, it will be misdirected: not referring to anarchism at all, but to something he's chosen to label that way - a stick to beat anarchism with.

Some posters will respond mockingly. Others will advise against engaging with this nonsense.

He will either repeat himself ad nauseum, or go entirely silent.

Meantime, someone else will demand historical examples of anarchism 'working'. Any that are provided will be disparaged for being too old. (Missing the point that simply because something isn't happening now, it can't happen in the future.)

Any questions about the ongoing successes of Leninism will be ignored.

It all descends into an anti-SWP bunfight, peppered with hilarious digs about anarchism being a 'scene' or a 'lifestyle'.

And so it goes round again.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Annakisseds lol

 

[DotCommunist]

You forgot 'sly quips about cannabis and/or cider'

 

[SpineyNorman]

Where's that pic of the skinny middle class anarcho that ernestolynch loves so much? That needs an airing on this thread.

 

[SpineyNorman]

This'll have to do:

 

[Athos]

Where's that pic of the skinny middle class anarcho that ernestolynch loves so much? That needs an airing on this thread.

It's threads like this which make me miss Ern.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where's that pic of the skinny middle class anarcho that ernestolynch loves so much? That needs an airing on this thread.

 

[eoin_k]

ResistanceMP3 liked your post in the thread Why anarchism as a method of action doesn't work..

 

[TremulousTetra]

Of course the myriad sects of the Leninist left have never been politically irrelevant glee clubs whose members burn themselves out engaging in irrelevant ineffective activism. Whereas no anarchists have ever been contributed to effective mass actions on the basis of class struggle. Fact!

One of the strengths of many 'Anarchists'* over the sort of politics you represent is their ability to apply this sort of critique to their own practice in periods when I can only imagine the likes of you indulging in self congratulatory, delusional rhetoric.

Take this text published in the wake of June the 18th, one of the high water marks of 'Anarchist' activism in recent decades:

http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm

* The inverted commas are an attempt to acknowledge that a lot of class struggle Anarchists have been critical of the sort of activism you are trying to critique for a long time. Also a lot of people who think that the activist scene shouldn't be completely dismissed as irrelevant and might be worth some (critical) engagement don't necessarily think of themselves as Anarchists or use theoretical tools from an Anarchist tradition to make sense of their politics.

Thanks, good post imo.

"Of course the myriad sects of the Leninist left have never been politically irrelevant glee clubs whose members burn themselves out engaging in irrelevant ineffective activism. Whereas no anarchists have ever been contributed to effective mass actions on the basis of class struggle. Fact!" Your irony is not lost on me, but is also not something I'm really interested in at this moment. I accept to some degree your accusations about Leninist sects, but it is not the specific point I am interested in.

Secondly, I'm not dictating, as some people have inferred, what activists should or should not do. That's their choice if they want to go to prison etc. I'm just asking, pointing out, that the tactics are a profligate waste of fine revolutionary comrades. Something upon which you and I, and the link you have provided, seemed to agree upon.

I cannot speak for other Leninist groups, but I am indeed glad to see that anarchists do critique this wastefull methodology, as do the SWP.

"Take this text published in the wake of June the 18th, one of the high water marks of 'Anarchist' activism in recent decades:

http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm

* The inverted commas are an attempt to acknowledge that a lot of class struggle Anarchists have been critical of the sort of activism you are trying to critique for a long time. Also a lot of people who think that the activist scene shouldn't be completely dismissed as irrelevant and might be worth some (critical) engagement don't necessarily think of themselves as Anarchists or use theoretical tools from an Anarchist tradition to make sense of their politics."

And I totally accept this flawed methodology is not confined to anarchism. The Easter uprising where great revolutionaries paid with their lives for such a folly was equally criticised by the SWP. But it does seem the concentration on the individual rather than the primacy of the collective action, which is so endemic in the anarchist philosophy, does lead to more individual acts on behalf of the class, rather than collective acts with the class.

I Remember a discussion with Athos [I think it was Athos] about Seattle, where he seemed far more concerned about the right of anarchists to ignore the democratic will of the majority, rather than the effectiveness and the cost to the movement as a whole. Even comments in this thread by other people give primacy to the individual, rather than the collective. I have no problem whatsoever with individuals doing what they want, and ignoring the majority, if it is not stupidly offering up to the state as some kind of sacrifice, cannon fodder, comrades who are so desperately needed in the fight for progressive politics. And even then, it is their choice. I am just suggesting two things, 1. This is a waste. 2. Concentration on the individual makes this more prevalent amongst anarchists.

I don't think anarchists can deny the anarchists place more emphasis on the individual and the SWP place more emphasis on the collective, can they?

 

[TremulousTetra]

LOL, see above.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Interesting that the OP views activists semi-instrumentally, as a resource, rather than as individuals free to determine how they act within society

Thanks.

 

[DotCommunist]

e he seemed far more concerned about the right of anarchists to ignore the democratic will of the majority, rather than the effectiveness and the cost to the movement as a whole. Even comments in this thread by other people give primacy to the individual, rather than the collective

the greek stalinists were using this line to give the anarchists a hard time recently. Lots of accusations and counter accusations of touthood and beating up workers etc etc

 

[butchersapron]

3 people have been arrested for trespass for fucks sake - they've not been executed by firing squad. That's it, trespass - 'profligate waste of fine revolutionary comrades' indeed

 

[Athos]

I Remember a discussion with Athos [I think it was Athos] about Seattle, where he seemed far more concerned about the right of anarchists to ignore the democratic will of the majority, rather than the effectiveness and the cost to the movement as a whole.

What is the 'movement as a whole'? If it isn't a movement towards freedom, it's nothing. And coercion of comrades is anathema to that freedom. This 'democratic will of the majority' is nothing more than mob rule when it is used to trample others' freedoms. My point was that there's room for a diversity of tactics. But, sadly, some within 'the left' don't like that, because they prefer to control the whole show.

I don't think anarchists can deny the anarchists place more emphasis on the individual and the SWP place more emphasis on the collective, can they?

I can deny it. Anarchists place more emphasis on freedom; the SWP places more emphasis in the working class doing what it's told.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I Remember a discussion with Athos [I think it was Athos] about Seattle, where he seemed far more concerned about the right of anarchists to ignore the democratic will of the majority, rather than the effectiveness and the cost to the movement as a whole.

I do hope Athos digs up that particular thread, even if only to expose how you're misrepresenting him.

Even comments in this thread by other people give primacy to the individual, rather than the collective.

From what is a collective constituted?
From individuals, of course. At best from individuals with broadly-similar aims, at worst, from forcing people to come together behind a particular philosophy.
Anarchisms often choose to focus on the former, rather than seek imposition of the latter.

I have no problem whatsoever with individuals doing what they want, and ignoring the majority, if it is not stupidly offering up to the state as some kind of sacrifice, cannon fodder, comrades who are so desperately needed in the fight for progressive politics. And even then, it is their choice. I am just suggesting two things, 1. This is a waste. 2. Concentration on the individual makes this more prevalent amongst anarchists.

And here again we have the instrumental view of activists as tools to be used to fight a cause. Whose cause, I wonder?

I don't think anarchists can deny the anarchists place more emphasis on the individual and the SWP place more emphasis on the collective, can they?

Wow, I didn't see that one coming! The SWP's cause!! Of course!!

 

[TremulousTetra]

​

What is the 'movement as a whole'? If it isn't a movement towards freedom, it's nothing. And coercion of comrades is anathema to that freedom. This 'democratic will of the majority' is nothing more than mob rule when it is used to trample others' freedoms. My point was that there's room for a diversity of tactics. But, sadly, some within 'the left' don't like that, because they prefer to control the whole show.

LOL, you're not talking to me, you're talking at a fictitious character, that exists in a fictitious SWP.

in fact, I don't care whether you want to go to prison or not. Your choice. I, like other anarchists, am merely questioning A naivete in tactic's. unlike the anarchists, I am arguing it is more prevalent among anarchism, with its emphasis on the individual, than it is amongst those groups that put emphasis upon the collective.

I can deny it. Anarchists place more emphasis on freedom; the SWP places more emphasis in the working class doing what it's told.

You havn't though.

 

[TremulousTetra]

if we disregard the bullish about Marxism, quite an interesting article.

David Graeber is a ​

Reader in Social Anthropology​

at Goldsmiths, University of London. ​

"the occupier movement is a genuine attempt to create the institutions of a new society in the shell of the old"​

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/11/489316.html