Who will be the next Labour leader?

[Smokeandsteam]

Just reading this book that covers all this stuff and more.

A Left for Itself: Left-wing Hobbyists and Performative Radicalism: Amazon.co.uk: David Swift: 9781789040739: Books

Buy A Left for Itself: Left-wing Hobbyists and Performative Radicalism by David Swift (ISBN: 9781789040739) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

I've got two major problems with the book. He’ll use, for example, a tweet from a head case as evidence of wider left hobbyist thinking. I’d have preferred a book that criticises genuinely widespread thought rather than the loon fringe. That would have been useful. Instead it feels like it’s trying too hard in places.

Secondly, the book is an argument for a return to the centre. Which, as we know, is precisely where Labour cannot return to

 

[brogdale]

A thought, is this a reversal maybe? Does the very act of taking part in political parties embourgeois people or make them appear so?

You are there, speaking thoughtfully, discussing political matters. You, therefore must be mc or must have become mc. RLB arrives, a legal professional, which box is she in?

No, and if it does, you're doing it wrong.

 

[brogdale]

I've got two major problems with the book. He uses, for example, a tweet from a head case as evidence of left hobbyist thinking. I’d have preferred a book that criticises genuinely widespread thought rather than the loon fringe. That would have been useful. Instead it feels like it’s trying too hard in places.

Secondly, the book is an argument for a return to the centre. Which, as we know, is precisely where Labour cannot return to

Though, where it is just about to go.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Though, where it is just about to go.

it does appear that Labour is only capable of two positions. A return to centrism guarantees Labour the same outcome that has befallen every centrist party in Europe. If the Democrats succeed in blocking Bernie and running Bloomberg/Biden and try again to defeat Trump from the centre the same fate awaits them

 

[LDC]

I've got two major problems with the book. He’ll use, for example, a tweet from a head case as evidence of wider left hobbyist thinking. I’d have preferred a book that criticises genuinely widespread thought rather than the loon fringe. That would have been useful. Instead it feels like it’s trying too hard in places.

Secondly, the book is an argument for a return to the centre. Which, as we know, is precisely where Labour cannot return to

I agree, I do think it's clumsy in places and he's trying to be 'edgy' or something, but if you ignore his centrism he still has some valid observations.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I agree, I do think it's clumsy in places and he's trying to be 'edgy' or something, but if you ignore his centrism he still has some valid observations.

I agree. The strength of the book is the identification of the hobbyist and how they’ve subverted their brand of left politics away from actually doing/achieving stuff and towards their own prejudices

 

[Mr Moose]

No, and if it does, you're doing it wrong.

I’m talking about the perception of the viewer.

 

[brogdale]

it does appear that Labour is only capable of two positions. A return to centrism guarantees Labour the same outcome that has befallen every centrist party in Europe. If the Democrats succeed in blocking Bernie and running Bloomberg/Biden and try again to defeat Trump from the centre the same fate awaits them

Woman I know was at a CLP leadership nomination meeting the other night; she said the same people willing to blame the press/media for the GE defeat were spouting lines reinforced by the same media advocating the need to moderate. She said it reminded her of those dreadful 'focus group' bits on the news in the run up to the GE in which everyone said how much the problem was corbyn etc.

 

[brogdale]

I’m talking about the perception of the viewer.

eh?

 

[Mr Moose]

it does appear that Labour is only capable of two positions. A return to centrism guarantees Labour the same outcome that has befallen every centrist party in Europe. If the Democrats succeed in blocking Bernie and running Bloomberg/Biden and try again to defeat Trump from the centre the same fate awaits them

Well that’s that bollocksed then. Agree centrism won’t win, but it should be clear that if the Party is considered to be simply ‘Carry on Corbyn’ it won’t win either. And neither represents listening to the voters it lost.

 

[Mr Moose]

eh?

You say they look like ‘do gooders’ which is your perception.

 

[brogdale]

You say they look like ‘do gooders’ which is your perception.

This whole discussion is essentially founded on perceptions of how the party operates/ed/presents/ed.

 

[Mr Moose]

This whole discussion is essentially founded on perceptions of how the party operates/ed/presents/ed.

Sure, I’m just wondering what you look like to the casual observer. Do gooder?

 

[redsquirrel]

A thought, is this a reversal maybe? Does the very act of taking part in political parties embourgeois people or make them appear so?

You are there, speaking thoughtfully, discussing political matters. You, therefore must be mc or must have become mc. RLB arrives, a legal professional, which box is she in?

How many political party meetings have you been to?
And are you arguing the above or saying that is what brogdale (or others?) are arguing?

 

[brogdale]

Sure, I’m just wondering what you look like to the casual observer. Do gooder?

No idea pal; but I could certainly discern mc do-gooders when I used to be in meetings that they dominated with their patronising attitudes and top-down 'solutions' to the poor people's problems.
Just saying.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

IMO it doesn't matter who the next Labour leader is. Even the Atlee government rolled back dental cover on the NHS and introduced prescription charges. Then there is the job the Labour Party has had in crushing class struggle (which includes Atlee's government), from sabotaging the 1926 general strike, to using the army to break up strikes on multiple occasions after World War 2. The Kinnock government refused to support the miners strike, anytime our class fights back they are the first to denounce it, so why support them or vote for them?

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I very much doubt a left-wing government could put any decent programs into place, even if they did, under the dictatorship of capital, such reforms couldn't last forever. The economic situation simply doesn't allow it. It's only through our class overthrowing capital, taking power, and abolishing commodity production that permanent systems of welfare can be implemented. If you want to properly understand why capital can not be reformed, it's well worth reading up on Marx's theory of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, which he writes about in part 3 of Capital, Henryk Grossman and Paul Mattick also write on it at length and are worth reading.

 

[Mr Moose]

How many political party meetings have you been to?
And are you arguing the above or saying that is what brogdale (or others?) are arguing?

I’m just saying it’s easy to point the finger. I’d imagine that most people turning up to most political meetings (that aren’t solely work based) probably look a bit fey. They probably are do gooders to most people, even the working class ones. That’s why they are there. That’s probably what most people on this board would come over as.

I’m not saying you can’t spot Lucys and Tarquins turning up with naked self interest, but let’s not beat up on everyone or forget that people are diverse, not homogeneous.

 

[imposs1904]

"Here's my principles . . . you don't like them? . . . I have others."

 

[redsquirrel]

I’m just saying it’s easy to point the finger. I’d imagine that most people turning up to most political meetings (that aren’t solely work based) probably look a bit fey. They probably are do gooders to most people, even the working class ones. That’s why they are there. That’s probably what most people on this board would come over as.

I’m not saying you can’t spot Lucys and Tarquins turning up with naked self interest, but let’s not beat up on everyone or forget that people are diverse, not homogeneous.

OK but that's very different from an argument that "the very act of taking part in political parties embourgeois people", which is not a position I've seen anyone of this thread make.

 

[hash tag]

Hmmm, fake news, someone stirring it? Labour accuses Keir Starmer team of data breach

 

[Smokeandsteam]

A Labour not learning the lessons of the last 4 years about divided parties not winning elections:

'Up To 50 MPs Preparing To Quit Labour' If Rebecca Long-Bailey Wins Leadership

Open selections and prospect of "continuity Corbyn" leaves bloc of MPs in despair.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

I do wonder who these 50 MPs might be, and if they even exist at all?

Given the state of the RLB campaign, and her drifting levels of support, the timing of this seems very odd. There is also the reality that a lot of the shit stirrers have left the HoC and so you have to conclude that this story could very well be bollocks..

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It's only through our class overthrowing capital, taking power, and abolishing commodity production that permanent systems of welfare can be implemented.

Fat chance of that. Trade union consciousness, let alone class consciousness, is at an all time low. Never before has it been so obviously that the virus of Thatcherism has infected the minds of so many working class people - individualism, nationalism and class deference are at an all time high. Orgreave has a Tory MP. Let that sink in. The people of Bolsover voted to replace a working class life long socialist for a carpetbagging Tory prick who works in private digital healthcare provision. Rightwing nationalist bullshit decisively won over social democratic reformism. The prospects for socialism have never been bleaker.

 

[ska invita]

From what I've read so far, it's a bit of a clumsily written book and it needed a better editor,

Thats a Zero Books thing. IM not sure they even have editors. Its a very "light touch" publishing model. Most all their books are like that IME

 

[andysays]

Hmmm, fake news, someone stirring it? Labour accuses Keir Starmer team of data breach

This bit seems odd

Late last night, Sir Keir wrote to the party flatly denied any wrongdoing by his team members. He insisted they were investigating a means of penetrating the database - called Dialogue - with no intention to use it.

 

[seeformiles]

I provided the PA system for a Labour leadership selection meeting last week. Whole spectrum of tribes in attendance but Starmer won with Long-Bailey second (Thornberry got no votes at all). Got the feeling that many feel Long Bailey has pissed on her chips by bringing her faith to the fore while Starmer was seen as the most electable - although there were cries of “sell out!” when it was announced. Rayner won the deputy nomination.

 

[Mr Moose]

A Labour not learning the lessons of the last 4 years about divided parties not winning elections:

'Up To 50 MPs Preparing To Quit Labour' If Rebecca Long-Bailey Wins Leadership

Open selections and prospect of "continuity Corbyn" leaves bloc of MPs in despair.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

I do wonder who these 50 MPs might be, and if they even exist at all?

Given the state of the RLB campaign, and her drifting levels of support, the timing of this seems very odd. There is also the reality that a lot of the shit stirrers have left the HoC and so you have to conclude that this story could very well be bollocks..

It probably is bollocks, though (and oddly giving all the cries of victimisation and bullying) there are plenty of MPs left who you’d think would do it or certainly murmur unhelpfully about doing it. Not enough were purged, despite their narrative which wholly ignores the attacking they did.

But RLB must be regretting every day her enthusiastic post election endorsement of Corbyn. It looks ridiculous to most everyone to the right or left of her.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

Sounds more like this happened. Why would starmer, who is way out in front, risk hacking into the system when they’re about to get access to the data in a few days anyway. Nice smear while he was at his mother in law’s death bed.

desperation

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/keir-starmer-membership-data-dialogue-hacking_uk_5e4016dfc5b6f1f57f12d3cb/

 

[killer b]

Sounds more like this happened. Why would starmer, who is way out in front, risk hacking into the system when they’re about to get access to the data in a few days anyway. Nice smear while he was at his mother in law’s death bed.

desperation

You still have to report a data breach to the ICO regardless of the reasons someone claims for committing the breach y'know.