The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
"An overwhelming 79 per cent of non-Labour voters said they were unlikely to endorse the party if she led it. For the others, the figures were Sir Keir 71, Ms Thornberry 76 and Ms Nandy, 71. "
Who will be the next Labour leader?
- Thread starter Don Troooomp
- Start date
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Non labour voters in 'not wanting to vote labour' shocker.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
well, she didn't really call them that, did she? Criticising the apartheid Israeli for using Eurovision to whitewash its human rights record she said it was like 'putting lipstick on a pig'. Fair enough.
But some folk just dont like bloody muslims speaking up about Israel at all.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Bit fucking late for that.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Any suggestions how Labour win without some of these non-Labour voters changing their mind?
I would like Rebecca wrong bailey to become leader as she's the most equipped to continue Liebours demise.
polls like this are pretty meaningless tbh. Hardly anyone knows anything about Long Bailey other than her being the Corbyn candidate, and people are terrible judges of how they'd react to hypotheticals anyway. The only purpose of polling like this is to try and sway the result.
editor
hiraethified
Thanks for that. No need to answer because you're banned from this thread.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Could start by only calling the racists racist rather than half the population?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yes, the strategy of calling everybody but fellow hobbyists racist/scum/fascist/gammon does seem to be delivering a diminishing return. Perhaps heads will finally be given a wobble once the Tories breach the 50% mark, but I doubt it.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
I think the problem might be that the denunciations haven’t been harsh enough yet. Once the scabs and scum are condemned vociferously enough I have no doubt they will realise the error of their ways and come running back to the Vanguard Party begging for forgiveness.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
I think the strategy of denouncing everyone else for this probably has a diminishing return too. 24% of people in the UK would apparently vote for an anti-Islamic party. More than 50% of Tory members would not support a leader if they were a Muslim. Those who voted Tory were comfortable enough with voting with this and with legacies like Windrush. Simply blaming over excited lefties and liberals provides a ton of cover for nationalists.
And sure, most people in the UK are fine really, get on with their neighbours and work colleagues of whatever background. But let’s not pretend many don’t have fears, fears that can be manipulated. That for some ‘we want our country back’ meant something quite specific. These differences are not going to disappear and there will be times when the left has to stand its ground.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I'm not sure that the figures you quote take us anywhere. Is anyone really talking in this context about a segment of the tory party membership as representative of anything?
I'm also unclear if you are suggesting that the 'legacies of Windrush' were an issue in the forefront of voters minds in December? But, let's agree that a form of populism is gathering support across much of Europe which seeks to place the blame for a variety of problems on migrants.
Let's also agree that in those circumstances a number of tactical options are open to the left. But they, surely, should have the following objectives in mind: to isolate the far right, to cut away its peripheral support and to expose the bankruptcy of their politics. Priority would be given to building solidarity through action and addressing immediate issues that bring people together in their workplace and community and which over time promote pro-working class alternatives.
How exactly then are 'over excited lefties and liberals' helping with developing such an approach? How widespread does the realisation/suspicion that the left hate you have to be become before we accept its a problem. Where does the writing off of millions of people by the left leave them to go politically except to the right? If you are told over and again that what you think makes you 'Tory scum'/fash why not accept the label and act accordingly?
Finally, let's also not pretend that 'holding the line' and denouncing millions of people is one and the same thing. Opposing racists and fascists - and actively holding the line against them - and sitting on twitter denouncing half the country as Tories and gammons are very different things.
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Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
And the readiness that the corbynite and/or the twitter ‘death to the gammons’ people to work with/promote/defend racists and nazis when it suits.
But then again I would say that, Rothschilds-Mossad agent that I am.
But then again I would say that, Rothschilds-Mossad agent that I am.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
no, that's the other comment already mentioned. Do try and keep up.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Yeah, about ‘10 Rothschild bankers’
But people think she’s a racist because of the Zionists.
Incidentally, do you not think people like her (and you) have played any part in making Zionism much more attractive to British Jews than it was before? Netanyahu loves people like you - handy recruiting sergeants that you are
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Appoint Boris Johnson as Labour leader.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
the article that also said Obama was a muslim and all muslims are terrorists. As I said before. And which she immediately deleted and apologised for. She fucked up, apologised and went to read up on the topic in question. Which seems like quite grown up behaviour to me. But not to the pro-apartheid right, of course.
I think Netanyahu loves people who mindlessly repeat this drivel rather more then he does me.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Come now, the Labour clique certainly said lots of things to alienate working class voters. Like when Corbyn called working class people feckless and lazy and said that poor families produced unloved children. Or when Dianne Abbott said that the people in Grenfell died because they were too stupid to listen to the firemen. And remember that Labour’s campaign strategy was to systematically lie to and deceive the public.
Oh wait, that was Johnson and Rees Mogg and the Tories. It’s almost as if propaganda and rightwing nationalist bullshit are what won the day and blaming the people who were trying counter it is a cop out.
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Wouldn't he be English history?
. Then again, he did have wars with Scotland.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
I agree with a lot of this and whatever anyone believes, the only way forward is positively and without the rancour. That’s the reason I think it’s time to move on from this constant repetition of that failure. I don’t think many people are still driving that argument forward, they don't appear to be doing so in Labour anyway.
I do take issue with the somewhat passive notion that left wing blame is such an important factor driving people to the right. There is a large proportion of working class people who have not been culturally Labour since immigration in the 60s and 70s. Economically they may want similar things, but their scepticism of socialism and left wing views is very high. Brexit was a defeat of socialism to some, albeit forms most here wouldn’t recognise as being it, the EU, metro liberals. It provided a growing confidence to some hawkish views that are not restricted to a handful of fash. My sister, a kind and normally rational person, shares ridiculous posts on facebook saying that it is not allowed to celebrate Xmas anymore (guess who would be offended) and defying anyone to take her poppy off her. This stuff is absolutely widespread and between this, the Daily Hates and bigoted middle class opinion formers it's an uphill battle to convince people we are on their side. I don't think it helps just saying how horrible we are day in day out. People will just believe it all too readily.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
You are right on the scepticism of ‘left wing views’ , but some of that is to do with where ‘left wing views’ are at now and have been for the past 20 odd years or more . Economically some of the Labour manifesto were very popular however ‘left wing views’ also wanted to deny w/class voters of any agency in the Brexit vote . ‘Left wing views’ also labelled the very people like your sister ( and funnily enough my sister) with just being labelled racist rather than engaging with them and having a discussion or even as going as far to get them involved in something . Too many are written off because their views don’t reach an acceptable standard. We’ve reached a period whereby many on the ‘left’ are all for ‘socialism’ but socialism without the working class.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Absolutely, and when you remove the working class from socialism you not only make 'socialism' incoherent you have the problem of how your 'socialism' is going to be brought about.
Lisa Nandy seems? to be a little bit better at interacting with normal and working claqss people than the others -- article about her walkabouts in Worksop (+ other now-Tory-MP places) in yesterday's Graun** ....
**In rush, no time for link
She's not really coming out with any left policies though (so far)
**In rush, no time for link
She's not really coming out with any left policies though (so far)
Wish I had more time for this, but there's a risk of over-generalising there I'd say.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Get what you're saying, but there's got to be a greater risk in brushing over the salient point.
I can recall too many LP meetings that seemed more like gatherings of the local MCs/do-gooders/well-intentioned than organising for socialism. There'd be meetings where barely a WC voice was heard.
If the party can't/doesn't address why so few WC folk feel able/willing to engage, it's lost.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Just reading this book that covers all this stuff and more.
From what I've read so far, it's a bit of a clumsily written book and it needed a better editor, but it hits the mark at least 50% of the time imo. And although aimed at Labour it does have relevance to the wider left, especially the activist left.
A Left for Itself: Left-wing Hobbyists and Performative Radicalism: Amazon.co.uk: David Swift: 9781789040739: Books
Buy A Left for Itself: Left-wing Hobbyists and Performative Radicalism by David Swift (ISBN: 9781789040739) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.
www.amazon.co.uk
From what I've read so far, it's a bit of a clumsily written book and it needed a better editor, but it hits the mark at least 50% of the time imo. And although aimed at Labour it does have relevance to the wider left, especially the activist left.
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Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
A thought, is this a reversal maybe? Does the very act of taking part in political parties embourgeois people or make them appear so?
You are there, speaking thoughtfully, discussing political matters. You, therefore must be mc or must have become mc. RLB arrives, a legal professional, which box is she in?
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