Who will be the next Labour leader?

[Wilf]

Really? He was one of the most important figures in the creation of, and creators of political space for, the Labour Party when that was by no means the easiest path. For that he's a 'hero' - and certainly in comparison to your, or my, contributions.

He was also an anti-Semite - indeed he described himself as such - which alone would make any analysis of the man nuanced at the very least.

In some ways, the portrayal of macdonald as 'the traitor' is a convenient way of ignoring the lack of ideas and alternatives in the Labour Party in the 20s and early 30s. It's a self defence mechanism the labour party uses to avoid analysis of its stupidity and timidity (and that others would have made the same cuts). But still, the likes of thomas, snowden and macdonald were scum.

 

[redsquirrel]

My analysis has tonnes of class.

Not any more it doesn't.
Being serious, I find it really depressing to see someone who's politics I respected, even if I disagreed with them, end up in some individualist dead end. I mean what are your politics now? How is the 'socialism' you seem to want to be brought about? I'm not trying to insult you here I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Mr Moose]

I've just asked a german kid and they'd didn't know who atlee was either

Which is odd, because Europeans, EU or not, often have a very good command of British history.

 

[Mr Moose]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don't believe in the parliamentary road to socialism.

If they've any sense it'll be Lisa Nandy. I think they'll vote for Keir Starmer.

Do you not get even the slightest worry that Nandy is a Blair level belzebub in waiting? She has a worrying self certainty for someone on the very soft left side. I wonder if she had a southern accent if she would even be in the running.

Maybe that’s unfair, but I can’t see why she is the obvious choice.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Which is odd, because Europeans, EU or not, often have a very good command of British history.

Never gets old that

 

[redsquirrel]

Whatever Nandy's faults she does not follow Blair's politics. She's from the soft left of the party and her past record is as, it not more so, left as Starmer's.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Whatever Nandy's faults she does not follow Blair's politics. She's from the soft left of the party and her past record is as, it not more so, left as Starmer's.

'Left of Starmer' is the new gold standard for damning with faint praise.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm not saying that her politics are great, that she won't sell out (of course she will she's running for Labour leader) or anything like that just that I don't think Mr Moose is reading her political tradition correctly. She fits far more firmly in the soft left LP group than Starmer does.

 

[Mr Moose]

I'm not saying that her politics are great, that she won't sell out (of course she will she's running for Labour leader) or anything like that just that I don't think Mr Moose is reading her political tradition correctly. She fits far more firmly in the soft left LP group than Starmer does.

Both backed Owen Smith. I’m not seeing much between them, but then I’m not sure that legal professional Long-Bailey is particularly different either.

Which is both good and bad. It’s likely that whoever is chosen will follow a similar path in terms of policies. Who has the personality you would trust and trust to lead and make difficult calls is key.

 

[redsquirrel]

Well the split on the Welfare Bill marks a pretty key point of difference between Starmer and Nandy. And RLB is from a different section of the party again.

 

[Mr Moose]

Well the split on the Welfare Bill marks a pretty key point of difference between Starmer and Nandy. And RLB is from a different section of the party again.

Maybe, as she has generally voted well on welfare. Maybe she was fortunate to have been in maternity leave for the Welfare Bill itself.

State of Labour then. Christ on a bike.

 

[teqniq]

Interesting thread re: Starmer. does not exactly cover him in glory:

 

[treelover]

Starmers last act was to increase maximum sentence for benefit fruad to ten years, though not sure if that was for conspiracy, gangs operating, etc.

 

[Smangus]

Criminal gangs systematically attack both the benefits and tax systems so no argument for increasing the penalty for that from me. But if CPS etc is pursuing those that made genuine errors claiming benefits as "fraudulent ", making them open to the same penalties, then that is an issue.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Starmers last act was to increase maximum sentence for benefit fruad to ten years, though not sure if that was for conspiracy, gangs operating, etc.

As DPP he had no power to increase maximum sentences. He could only issue guidance on how and when fraud cases ought to be prosecuted. It is true that he did call for tougher prosecution of benefit fraud.

 

[Streathamite]

Simply not true. There have been no labour governments for 45 years apart from blair.

Err Wilson/Callaghan,anyone?
Buy more importantly you're missing my point- by a mile. It was certainly true that whilst the neoliberal era was in full flow, you probably couldn't win it for Labour on any platform bar a Blairite one.

But then came the Crash, and a decade of austerity. One of the consequences of that has been to fully finish off the neoliberal era, another is the complete collapse of liberal centrist politics. .

All over Europe (and America), the voters have overwhelmingly rejected them. When Labour swung left in the 2017 GE,they reaped a simply huge increase in their vote.

Conclusion: keep tacking left, Labour, times have changed

 

[Streathamite]

Sorry but Blair won three elections, two by landslides on exactly that platform. He's the only Labour prime minister to have tasted success in 40 years. What does that tell you?

It tells me it worked then, but won't work now.Times have moved on too much.

It's also worth remembering that Blair peaked in 1997. In the 3 elections after that, he and Brown managed to lose 5 million votes

 

[killer b]

Starmers last act was to increase maximum sentence for benefit fruad to ten years, though not sure if that was for conspiracy, gangs operating, etc.

You weren't sure about this last time you posted it the other week too - why not find out?

 

[Mr Moose]

Err Wilson/Callaghan,anyone?
Buy more importantly you're missing my point- by a mile. It was certainly true that whilst the neoliberal era was in full flow, you probably couldn't win it for Labour on any platform bar a Blairite one.

But then came the Crash, and a decade of austerity. One of the consequences of that has been to fully finish off the neoliberal era, another is the complete collapse of liberal centrist politics. .

All over Europe (and America), the voters have overwhelmingly rejected them. When Labour swung left in the 2017 GE,they reaped a simply huge increase in their vote.

Conclusion: keep tacking left, Labour, times have changed

That really depends on what you call ‘tacking left’. Certainly there isn’t much reason to change economic policy. Nationalisation looks like it can have its time again, the NHS and other services are popular spends.

But culturally and politically? What does that mean to take it further left and then on to a whole range of voters who actively distrust leftist politics as not being for ‘them’ or patronising or top down or restrictive on their aspirations? What does that mean for Foreign Policy when the Russian State kills people including UK citizens on home soil, but the leader of a ‘leftist’ party distrusts the UK state too much to say anything much? What does it mean about our attitude to trade and industry in the widest sense? Simply ‘more left’ doesn’t work unless we know what that means beyond triangulating from who we don’t trust.

 

[Streathamite]

When have they gone for the far left?

Labour have never,ever really been 'far left', but their most radical manifesto was probably 1945.
It won them a landslide, against universally predicted Tory victory.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Tbf to Nandy she is bang on money with this and to best of my knowledge the only labour politician, welsh labour or otherwise, to ever actually acknowledge something which is a widespread (and justified) view in the region

BBC News - Labour: Lisa Nandy says north Wales 'feels shut out' from Cardiff Bay

Labour: Lisa Nandy says north Wales 'feels shut out' from Cardiff Bay

Lisa Nandy's comments come as the four rivals to be Labour leader attend a hustings in Cardiff.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Proper Tidy]

DP

 

[The39thStep]

That'll fix it thought Ron. But he was wrong.

Haringey: Labour members call for 'working-class section' in bid to regain power - OnLondon

Members of a Labour Party branch in north London want to create a special grouping within Labour for working-class people in order to help the party form a national government. An invitation to join the project circulated before the Crouch End ward’s regular branch meeting scheduled for tomorrow...

www.onlondon.co.uk

 

[Smokeandsteam]

That'll fix it thought Ron. But he was wrong.

Haringey: Labour members call for 'working-class section' in bid to regain power - OnLondon

Members of a Labour Party branch in north London want to create a special grouping within Labour for working-class people in order to help the party form a national government. An invitation to join the project circulated before the Crouch End ward’s regular branch meeting scheduled for tomorrow...

www.onlondon.co.uk

I see the meeting was held in Crouch End.

I went there on a T&G stewards course in the mid 1990's. From what I remember of the reception afforded to us in the local alehouses a working class section would be welcome there...

 

[treelover]

Where do you sign up?

 

[Pickman's model]

Starmers last act was to increase maximum sentence for benefit fruad to ten years, though not sure if that was for conspiracy, gangs operating, etc.

as usual you're not really on the ball.

...

Benefit cheats face 10 years in prison as Keir Starmer sets out

Director of Public Prosecutions said those suspected of benefit cheating can now be charged under the Fraud Act

www.independent.co.uk

the maximum sentence for those charged with benefit fraud under specific social security legislation remains at seven years. ks simply said use another act, charge under another crime.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where do you sign up?

haringey. it's in north london.

 

[Marty1]

This idea that a half-reasonable soft left platform would engage the public without drawing the ire of the tory press is undermined by the experience of Ed Miliband, who failed to rebuild any kind of Labour base with his wishy-washy shite but got monstered by the media anyway. The only thing which would interest me is someone saying fuck the press, fuck the chattering classes, we're going to talk directly to working people and actually support them, which is the right thing to do whether it gets us elected or not. None of the candidates are even close to that, and even if they were the current PLP wouldn't stand for it.

A lot of Corbyn's missteps I can let him off for, on the grounds that he didn't have many better options. But failing to plan for his probable downfall by identifying a credible successor, that just smacks of arrogance. Long-Bailey is a joke.

Think Boris is already on step ahead with that - pretty sure I read somewhere he’s going to copy Trump and bypass the media by Tweeting directly to the public.

 

[Marty1]

Could have been worse, could have been a bit of Yaz or Bonny Tyler something. 2unlimited. Brothers and sisters, there are no limits. No no no. You reach for the sky. Comrades, there are no valleys too low or mountains too high

lol, I was thinking of this:

Spoiler

 

[Puddy_Tat]

it's in north london.

there are limits...