Who will be the next Labour leader?

[Proper Tidy]

See people slag off the leninists but they understand the importance of political education for the cadre

 

[Smokeandsteam]

If Corbynism could be described as a return to the post war concencus, then you'd assume that the LP membership who overwhelmingly supported him would know what the PWC was and who created it....

That's kind of my point. Or put another way why spend your spend your spare timer on Twitter/canvassing/politically active and demanding 'save the NHS' or 'nationalise the utilities' if you aren't aware of where these ideas came from and why they matter.

 

[The39thStep]

Depends on your definition of dull, political obsessives - people who know the voting figures for Motion 607, Composite 4 of the 1978 LP conference are dull political obsessives, Man U fans who know the names and, roughly, the achievements of its four most successful managers would be nothing special in knowing the history of the club.

If Corbynism could be described as a return to the post war concencus, then you'd assume that the LP membership who overwhelmingly supported him would know what the PWC was and who created it....

True of many United supporters but not true of supporters of many other clubs

 

[killer b]

You don't need to be either to have a basic grasp of the history of the Party you have decided to join. A basic interest, presumably the reason why people join in the first place, should more than suffice.

While I think it's fine for political activists not to have a firm grasp of the policies of their party's leader from 75 years ago, I don't think you can even say that from the poll we're discussing. 25% of those polled said they weren't sure or didn't know enough about Atlee to say whether they have a positive or negative view - that doesn't necessarily mean they know nothing about him. And there was plenty to dislike about the Atlee government, after all.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

See people slag off the leninists but they understand the importance of political education for the cadre

When I joined the Militant you had to attend a weekly 'reading group' with the local 'full timer' (not sure if they still do this now) where you'd be quizzed on various obscure bollocks or even expected to do a 'lead off' on a topic. Whilst the overall experience was life sappingly shit I did learn how to read a book properly (something they didn't teach us at school) and to think.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

True of many United supporters but not true of supporters of many other clubs

If you asked asked Labour Party members who United's best ever manager was they'd probably say Jurgen Klopp.

 

[The39thStep]

When I joined the Militant you had to attend a weekly 'reading group' with the local 'full timer' (not sure if they still do this now) where you'd be quizzed on various obscure bollocks or even expected to do a 'lead off' on a topic. Whilst the overall experience was life sappingly shit I did learn how to read a book properly (something they didn't teach us at school) and to think.

The IS/SWP werent as formal as that but you were encouraged to go to a monthly Sunday day school where there were speakers and they suggested articles or books that you should read. After a while youd be asked to introduce an item at the branch , take part in debates and then possibly chosen to do a talk. All great self learning. I lived in a squat in Hayes down the road from an IMG one and they had to pass a candidates test thing to be a full member.

 

[killer b]

Written exams for all members before they can start going to meetings or putting a Labour twibbon on their social media profile.

 

[Proper Tidy]

When I joined the Militant you had to attend a weekly 'reading group' with the local 'full timer' (not sure if they still do this now) where you'd be quizzed on various obscure bollocks or even expected to do a 'lead off' on a topic. Whilst the overall experience was life sappingly shit I did learn how to read a book properly (something they didn't teach us at school) and to think.

I was quite a while after you, 00s, militant no more but yeah more or less. No tests like the squeegees or anything but weekly meetings, every member had to do a lead off every so often etc. Lot of wasted energy of course and they only liked the thinking if it tallied with what you were supposed to think but some was good - it was recommended to me early doors to read the FT as it's the house paper of capital and you should always know what they think and imo that was great fucking advice.

 

[killer b]

I mean really, what the fuck. Half the time you lot are all going on about how Labour need to broaden it's appeal to the working class, now it's marxist reading groups and Labour history oral exams?

 

[Proper Tidy]

I mean really, what the fuck. Half the time you lot are all going on about how Labour need to broaden it's appeal to the working class, now it's marxist reading groups and Labour history oral exams?

I'm just trot nostalgising, I'm not arsed about whether labour types know who atlee is tbf

 

[Proper Tidy]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times

 

[killer b]

I'm just trot nostalgising, I'm not arsed about whether labour types know who atlee is tbf

I wasn't replying to you, soz

 

[Proper Tidy]

Dunno if swappies/IS the same but SP rules was don't read the weekly paper, that's for punters, but the monthly magazine was a must

 

[Red Cat]

The IS/SWP werent as formal as that but you were encouraged to go to a monthly Sunday day school where there were speakers and they suggested articles or books that you should read. After a while youd be asked to introduce an item at the branch , take part in debates and then possibly chosen to do a talk. All great self learning. I lived in a squat in Hayes down the road from an IMG one and they had to pass a candidates test thing to be a full member.

It was absolutely expected (swp) that you read and were able to participate in a branch discussion and do talks. I was very socially anxious and hated talking in front of a group but i did a lot of branch meetings. The self learning was better than university cos i'd gone to university not really having the skills needed for that.

I'm always amazed at the lack of collaboration in work meetings or seminars - people often just say their thought without building on what's just been said or doing any linking up. I know in the swp it was always about using whatever was just said to make the political point, not suggesting it was free and creative discussion, but there was always an acknowledgment that somebody had just said something and now it was your turn and things were linked. I've always found it helpful.

 

[Red Cat]

Not expecting labour members to be like this btw. It was a self educating culture that was of a time and place, had a history.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I mean really, what the fuck. Half the time you lot are all going on about how Labour need to broaden it's appeal to the working class, now it's marxist reading groups and Labour history oral exams?

I don't think anyone, well me as I went off down the Militant reading group route, is suggesting that Labour can or should replicate them. I would just expect a member of a political party to have a grasp of its history - its achievements and failings, its development and its basic culture.

Put another way, if Labour is going to 'broaden its appeal' isn't an engaged and politically educated active membership a critical element?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Dunno if swappies/IS the same but SP rules was don't read the weekly paper, that's for punters, but the monthly magazine was a must

Yup. Plus the FT. Plus the 'book of the month' as recommended by the full timer (which they would helpfully sell to you)

 

[kebabking]

I don't think anyone, well me as I went off down the Militant reading group route, is suggesting that Labour can or should replicate them. I would just expect a member of a political party to have a grasp of its history - its achievements and failings, its development and its basic culture.

Put another way, if Labour is going to 'broaden its appeal' isn't an engaged and politically educated active membership a critical element?

This - not having a reasonable grasp of the party's history and achievements (and failures) while paying subs and knocking on doors seems a bit like joining the Cliff Richard fan club having never listened to his records....

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm always amazed at the lack of collaboration in work meetings or seminars - people often just say their thought without building on what's just been said or doing any linking up. I know in the swp it was always about using whatever was just said to make the political point, not suggesting it was free and creative discussion, but there was always an acknowledgment that somebody had just said something and now it was your turn and things were linked. I've always found it helpful.

The massive flaw in the Militant was that the only acceptable conclusion was that Grant/Taaffe/Trotsky/the 'young comrades in Chile' were right. But it was the method and the discipline that was of lasting value.

 

[two sheds]

This - not having a reasonable grasp of the party's history and achievements (and failures) while paying subs and knocking on doors seems a bit like joining the Cliff Richard fan club having never listened to his records....

Who's going to listen to Cliff RIchard's records?

 

[killer b]

I don't think anyone, well me as I went off down the Militant reading group route, is suggesting that Labour can or should replicate them. I would just expect a member of a political party to have a grasp of its history - its achievements and failings, its development and its basic culture.

Put another way, if Labour is going to 'broaden its appeal' isn't an engaged and politically educated active membership a critical element?

I mean, it worked really well for the SWP.

 

[Red Cat]

I mean, it worked really well for the SWP.

The SWP stopped putting an emphasis on political education in favour of activism around 25 years ago.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not really into nostalgia, and I was pretty critical (of the swp) at the time, a time when there was beginning to be less emphasis on political education, and more on recruiting whoever would join. It seemed to me that if you don't have a membership that can challenge the leadership with the reality on the ground (and democratic centralism is was supposed to be a dynamic model, in theory, from what I can remember) so all the power is held at the top, then you get an organisation that falls apart as soon as the leader dies. Like a cult really.

I should think there are aspects of that dynamic present in the labour party but I haven't been politically active for a long time so I'm not very in touch.

 

[Idris2002]

This not knowing who Attlee was - surely this is down to the absolutely appalling teaching of history in UK generally?

I've never known a UK student who would have had the basic historical knowledge of kids in Ireland, or Germany say.

 

[Proper Tidy]

This not knowing who Attlee was - surely this is down to the absolutely appalling teaching of history in UK generally?

I've never known a UK student who would have had the basic historical knowledge of kids in Ireland, or Germany say.

I've just asked a german kid and they'd didn't know who atlee was either

 

[brogdale]

I've just asked a german kid and they'd didn't know who atlee was either

But did they know how to spell his name?

e2a : channelling Pickman's model

 

[Proper Tidy]

Silly spelling anyway

 

[Idris2002]

I've just asked a german kid and they'd didn't know who atlee was either

Ask them if they know who the, uh, other guy was.

 

[Idris2002]

Of course in Ireland, it's all in the family, history teaching I mean.

Sooner or later, your granny will say "and then the Brits tied poor James Connolly to a chair and shot him, even though he was already dying of his wounds".

What would a UK version of that sort of thing sound like? "And then Henry the Eighth, dirty old bugger, decided he'd help himself to a sixth wife - dirty old man".