Who will be the next Labour leader?

[fakeplasticgirl]

Jess Philips was your second choice and she is out of the contest. So your banking on Starmer winning I assume.

Jess Phillips wasn’t my second choice, that is Lisa nandy.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I’m in his latest campaign video! Prick was too kind.

Just out of curiousity, not being snide, how did this happen?

 

[Gramsci]

Jess Phillips wasn’t my second choice, that is Lisa nandy.

Your post 189 here on page 7

What’s all the hate for jess Phillips? She’s be my second choice.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

Your post 189 here:

Ah that was before i watched the first hustings, where she was awful! (And then quit anyway!)

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

Just out of curiousity, not being snide, how did this happen?

Don’t want to say because I’ll probably be laughed at...

 

[two sheds]

Good attempt to change the point. But let's deal with that one. It was precisely Corbyn’s attempt to prioritise ‘keeping the party together’ over taking a clear position that was a) the problem and b) gave people like Starmer the room for his manoeuvre.

The tragedy is that Corbyn in 2017 had the support and authority to decide a position and decide to take it to the people. Instead, concerned about internal war, one which Starmer would have been a player, dithering took place allowing others to control the narrative and the approach.

This ended up with Labour - the wanna be insurgents - up to their neck in parliamentary game playing and adopting a non-position on the most important issue of the GE.

Next.

Yeh I'd have liked to have seen it too, but he was fucked if he did fucked if he didn't. Keeping the 'moderates' out of jobs and we'd have constant media briefings about Stalinist purges coming up to the election. Have to remember the number of MPs who always wanted rid of him.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yeh I'd have liked to have seen it too, but he was fucked if he did fucked if he didn't. Keeping the 'moderates' out of jobs and we'd have constant media briefings about Stalinist purges coming up to the election. Have to remember the number of MPs who always wanted rid of him.

I don’t underestimate the problem of the endless internal psychodrama. I also don’t dismiss the fact that Corbyn’s entire leadership was played out in terms of the battle for control of the party.

But, the more the game was engaged in. The more Corbyn and his followers (who let’s face it we’re obsessive about the game as much as their opponents) allowed the tail to wag the dog on Brexit the more abysmal the public position. And whilst it made it harder for Starmer, Watson etc to play their games and Parliamentary charades it didn’t stop it.

 

[two sheds]

True enough. I'm still not sure how it would have finished up if Labour had gone all-out Brexit though - someone here suggested something along the lines of "Do Brexit properly" which is the best approach I've heard.

We'd then still have had 50% of the voters to be divided between Labour and the tories and the other 50% of the voters wanting Remain, though.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

True enough. I'm still not sure how it would have finished up if Labour had gone all-out Brexit though - someone here suggested something along the lines of "Do Brexit properly" which is the best approach I've heard.

We'd then still have had 50% of the voters to be divided between Labour and the tories and the other 50% of the voters wanting Remain, though.

A full remain position, whilst wrong, would have been much better than the actual position with one important caveat. Like a clear leave policy it would have required proper explanation and a concrete set of commitments about how economic and social conditions would improve under it.

Labour’s/Corbyn’s failure was a timid refusal to take the issue of their position decisively away from Parliament and to politicise a clear strategy, one they then took out into communities, argue for it and win people to it.

 

[two sheds]

and not promising all sort of stuff members came up with (all good and practical though it was) without properly saying how it would be paid for.

Even then though, with the amount of monstering Corbyn and Labour got from the media I'm not sure they had a chance either way.

 

[Proper Tidy]

A full remain position, whilst wrong, would have been much better than the actual position with one important caveat. Like a clear leave policy it would have required proper explanation and a concrete set of commitments about how economic and social conditions would improve under it.

I can understand the reasoning behind a full remain (and reform) position being better - might have stopped that 4% swing to libdems which cost labour in a handful of seats - but wouldn't have made any noticeable difference to overall result anyway and in longer term would have been harder for labour to win back the voters it needs to win back. At least this was they can argue that they didn't seek to ignore the result, once a bit of time passes and once tories back in brexit quagmire that might have a bit of stick

 

[two sheds]

I do think Labour's position - renegotiate and then put it to people - was best actual policy rather than just staying in and ignoring the referendum or leave on Johnson's terms as we'll be getting. People were so fucked off with the whole thing so that didn't work either.

On reflection voting for May's proposal would have been best. Still a shit deal but we wouldn't be in for 5 years of Johnson and his mates. The 2017 election clearly went to the heads.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

We'd then still have had 50% of the voters to be divided between Labour and the tories and the other 50% of the voters wanting Remain, though.

but that was the choice in 2017, when tories and labour both campaigned on respecting the referendum result (but differences in how they would go about it) and got over 80% of the votes between them, and the lib dems and greens who were taking the second referendum line - and it didn't do them a lot of good...

 

[Big Bertha]

Corbyn allies ‘line up top jobs before new Labour leader is elected’

Party HQ, under its general secretary, Jenny Formby, has rejected criticism for advertising senior posts in emails to staff

www.theguardian.com

Its the Observer, and Toby Helm, but if true damning.

He’s trying to fuck the party for another 5 years

 

[kebabking]

Its worth noting that the Tories managed to - overwhelmingly - retain their remainer vote at both the 2017 and 2019 GE's. Obviously their split went the other way, but they seemed quite able to retain a huge slice of those who, if the electorate truly were defined solely by leave/remain, shouldn't have voted for them.

They, it seems to me, successfully used two messages to bridge the gap: we are where we are, and public faith in democracy is more important than membership of this or that international organisation, and I know you're unhappy with brexit, but a Tory government will give you things you want, and stop labour/Corbyn giving you lots of what you don't want.

Corbyn, to my mind, simply refused to run the risk of telling his supporters what they didn't want to hear - shades perhaps of his failures over anti-Semitism: too concerned with not alienating fellow travellers and not concerned enough with what the bubble was starting to look like from the outside - too much 'ive got the biggest ship', and not enough 'this is where my ship is going'...

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I can understand the reasoning behind a full remain (and reform) position being better - might have stopped that 4% swing to libdems which cost labour in a handful of seats - but wouldn't have made any noticeable difference to overall result anyway and in longer term would have been harder for labour to win back the voters it needs to win back. At least this was they can argue that they didn't seek to ignore the result, once a bit of time passes and once tories back in brexit quagmire that might have a bit of stick

You’ve overlooked two important points here - the first is about competence and capability. A clear policy, properly formulated, offers credibility at least. Second, such a policy would then need to be explained. The 500,000 members could have been put to use here, public meetings called, demands placed on a split Tory party. I’d argue that if this had happened seats in Labour areas would have been retained.

 

[SpookyFrank]

fair play

although I can quite understand the position of people who are concerned about the direction Leave is going - looks like closer ties to Trump & US, danger to NHS, danger to environmental and labour and food regulations with pretty far-right tories in charge ...

Not like the EU was protecting the NHS though is it?

And if you care about the environment and you don't want to eat chlorinated chicken, just become a vegetarian and kill two birds with one stone. Or, well, no birds.

 

[two sheds]

I read somewhere that new EU rules coming in this year mean that even more public contracts will be put out to tender so yes.

Still not as bad as what we're going to be getting though. Private Eye had a piece this issue that British farmers will likely be competing against cheap imports from the US, Brazil and the like with fewer environmental and welfare regulations. Any takers on whether country of origin won't be labelled in case people unfairly discriminate against American suppliers by deciding not to buy them. So not just chickens.

 

[Supine]

Not like the EU was protecting the NHS though is it?

FOM was helping to staff it

 

[brogdale]

Looking good for J£$$ica...

 

[treelover]

Don’t want to say because I’ll probably be laughed at...

Why should you be, you are entitled to your opinion, I am stil open minded who to vote for, don't think it will be RLB or Burgon though.

 

[treelover]

He’s trying to fuck the party for another 5 years

I would argue Helm, Cohen and co, helped push a fair few labour voters to the Lib dems, greens, etc.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Corbyn allies ‘line up top jobs before new Labour leader is elected’

Party HQ, under its general secretary, Jenny Formby, has rejected criticism for advertising senior posts in emails to staff

www.theguardian.com

Its the Observer, and Toby Helm, but if true damning.

I saw this earlier today and it seems to be entirely the Labour right briefing against their political opponents, and the Guardian breathlessly promoting it because of course they would. There's absolutely no indication that this is not an entirely normal procedure and has never been something tied to the leadership.

 

[ska invita]

I saw this earlier today and it seems to be entirely the Labour right briefing against their political opponents, and the Guardian breathlessly promoting it because of course they would.

The Observer - a shade more likely to

 

[SpookyFrank]

I saw this earlier today and it seems to be entirely the Labour right briefing against their political opponents, and the Guardian breathlessly promoting it because of course they would. There's absolutely no indication that this is not an entirely normal procedure and has never been something tied to the leadership.

The prospect of people being allocated jobs based on their expertise, experience and talents doesn't seem to have entered anyone's heads. Like everything else it must all come down to factional allegiance.

 

[two sheds]

I like the way all the headlines about the contenders have a backhanded swipe at Labour if that particular one doesn't get elected.

Why should Keir Starmer step aside? His rivals have few feminist credentials
Catherine Bennett

There was another along the lines of "Starmer would unite Labour - if they'd let him"

i.e. if those lefties would let the 'moderates' take charge again

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The Observer - a shade more likely to

The function of the Observer brand seems to be to let the Guardian publish even worse stuff on a Sunday and then say "oh actually it wasn't us it was the Observer". Implausible deniability.

 

[SpookyFrank]

There was another along the lines of "Starmer would unite Labour - if they'd let him"

Superb. Unity or death. Centrist stalinism. Although tbh I'm not sure Starmer's the right man to lead a cult of personality, it'd be like a snake leading a cult of legs.

 

[two sheds]

Superb. Unity or death. Centrist stalinism. Although tbh I'm not sure Starmer's the right man to lead a cult of personality, it'd be like a snake leading a cult of legs.

along the same lines

Keir Starmer’s soft-left approach is the unifying force that Labour needs | Zoe Williams

With other party leadership candidates underscoring division, Starmer is drawing in factions from the hard left and the centre, says Guardian columnist Zoe Williams

www.theguardian.com

I'm surprised they're not running articles about how the hard left approach could unify labour too

 

[Marty1]

RLB on the attack.