Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
There's some element of truth to that, but the main driver is the attitude towards the sex industry.
Urban v's the Commentariat
- Thread starter Belushi
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There's some element of truth to that, but the main driver is the attitude towards the sex industry.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Theisticle
Well-Known Member
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...t--but-russell-brand-has-a-point-9078393.html
Owen should have saved us the effort of reading and just typed 'VOTE LABOUR' in massive font.
Owen should have saved us the effort of reading and just typed 'VOTE LABOUR' in massive font.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Now you've hit on another layer of contradiction: the gender politics of Dr Who are to be analysed, while Dr Who fanfic is to be uncritically celebrated.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
It's also worth noting the tendency of liberals, sex positive feminists and many leftists to start talking about "choice" when it comes to the sex industry in ways that they would recognise as crude, simplistic and reactionary if the same arguments were made by, say, libertarians in any other context.
revol68
what, fucking what?
I generally think peoples private kinks are there own business, precisely that kind of separate place.
The notion though of the sex industry as above criticism like any other industry is bullshit though.
And yeah the danger for sex positive feminists in their desire to destigmatise sex work and sex in general is they end up nearly white washing the exploitative nature of sex work in a way they wouldn't in other industries. Almost like the inverse of anti porn/sex work feminists who in singling out the exploitative nature of sex work tend to make the general exploitative nature of work disappear.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I'm not really particularly interested in whether someone likes getting their arse smacked in the bedroom, as long as they aren't evangelising for it as some kind of emancipatory practice. But, for instance, sado-masochistic porn isn't "private" even in that sense and should be subject to the same sort of analysis as any other type of media. Any attempt to do that however will be met with extreme hostility by sex industry positive types.
revol68 said:
I agree with this, although I'd add a corollary. The problem isn't only that the general exploitativeness of work is absent from many sex positive accounts of "sex work", it is also that the specifically exploitative, gendered and invasive nature of "sex work" is glossed over too. Sex work may be work, but (a) that's not a good thing and (b) it's not "just" work.
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wobbly
probably cause most know shit all about it other than what a few (other) commentators have written.
This. it's become about fighting the against someone else's position rather than thinking for yourself jumping on a bandwagon instead of actually finding out enough information to know what you're talking about. It should be possible to discuss exploitation within the sex industry and that it is a product of an unbalanced society, without stigmatising and endangering people in it who are vulnerable. but that needs commentators who want it to be about the discussion, not their byline or bandwagon. or in thre case of campaign groups their own group's agenda and funding.
I've read just about enough on the historical debates to see the analysis that women have often chosen sex work because it was less bad than the alternatives available to them, often because of the limitations on them as women. My feeling is that considering it this way recognises that it is a choice but not necessarily a good choice. IDK, maybee find a middle ground as an answer, I do know the way ti's being discussed atm helps nobody
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
If you asked me to guess where this article came from and I didn't know the source then I would guess Spiked Online.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
The fabulous and fragrant James Ferman (head of the BBFC from the early 70's to the late 90's) used to blather on about working class people not being trusted/allowed to watch horror/explotation etc, because it was "bad" for them, whereas a middle-class, university educated person should be allowed to watch that stuff, because they "understood" film and were "cultured". I think you can also see Jimmy Ferman's "thinking" being applied to porn/erotica too - "tasteful" porn/erotica is OK for educated middle-class types, whereas yer regular porn/page 3 etc is "prole fodder", and should be banned in order to "save" the working class.
My own take on page 3 and so on? I don't care for it myself (ditto with lad's mags), but that stuff seems to be popular still, so I'm not minded to say "bin/ban!" to it, even if I think it's pretty dumb on a strictly personal level. As for porn - well, online business means that porn is here to stay, whether people like it or not, and I personally don't have any real issue with 2 fully consenting adults (preferably 21 years old+ for me) being filmed having sex (gonzo stuff I definitely find more problematic, though). But, y'know, porn ain't ever going to be a substitute for the real thing!
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
Can people stop mentioning fanfic? I'm still trying to forget Severus Snape and the Teletubbies.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
personally I find page 3 to be like this. 'oooh she looks good and has no top on' and thats it. There's a point to be made about about the normalisation of having women getting baps out in a mainstream paper and what that says about the casual sexualisation/objectifying of women in general. And yes there is a world of difference between the end of the pier saucy postcard stuff as opposed to hardcore stuff.
Its hard for me to really judge cos I enjoy porn and yet also worry about exploitation and commodification of the body but if a sex worker wants to work then who am I to say nay- I'm no puritan etc. Minefield. Not helped at all by the nagging christian guilt of my upbringing. The flesh is evil etc.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
Re porn/sex work - I think it's important to distinguish between women who make an informed, educated choice about entering the porn industry at the right age (21+ at the very least) where they have enough maturity and life experience at that point to deal with the inevitable downsides/crapola/bullshit of the porn industry - and women who really, really should go nowhere near said industry (only 18+, have had difficult/damaged lives, have substance abuse/alcohol issues, have emotional issues etc).
For sex workers - well, I have absolutely no interest/desire in getting involved in that world whatsoever (I find the whole idea a loveless, joyless thing to contemplate), but sex workers derserve full protection of the law, and should be allowed full and free access to help, counselling, assistance to help them leave the sex industry if they so wish etc when they need it. Regardless of the moral arguments of sex work/prostitution etc, the women involved there are human beings and should be treated as such, full stop. Before I had my extended leave of absence here, I recall at least one Urbanite being involved in the sex work industry/porn industry - it would be interesting/instructive to hear their take on things if they still post here.
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wobbly
and ignores the reality of how the jobless are treated - because allow escort ads and it will take a week before someone gets sanctioned for not wanting to be an escort.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
that was an image I could have happily gone my whole life without
Do I dare look this up myself, or is this trademark, patented Mind Bleach material?
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wobbly
I have a lot of those.
at some point, I'm going to have to post up some of his stranger journeys off into the world of the bizarre.
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wobbly
might i give you a hint here, if bakunin is discussing it, then it is quite likely to require mind bleach.
or somone calling the men in white coats
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
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wobbly
Heh! Thanks for the heads up, toggle
no problem.
revol68
what, fucking what?
to be honest I don't think so. they are shitheaps but they aren't so fucking stupid as to do that. They can easily afford to make a special category for sex work, not that they will add it.
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wobbly
i don't thibnk they would be stupid enough to do that officially, but how often do we hear stories of people being given sanctions that shouldn't happen?
revol68
what, fucking what?
yeah but this one would be pure paper fodder, who ever signed off on sanctioning on such grounds would be opening themselves to a shit storm.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Regarding a critique of gender roles in stuff like S&M versus Doctor Who, well Doctor Who is about relations between men and women in everyday settings,or in space or another galaxy or time, but y'know what I mean. Sexism is probably more reinforced by a show where the women are all superfluous to much of the action, passengers there to reward the male lead or to be rescued by him, than it is by s&m porn or whatever.
Personally I think the focus on media representation is liberal fluff, much of it being based on a really patronising idea of how ideology works and how social roles are reproduced.
Personally I think the focus on media representation is liberal fluff, much of it being based on a really patronising idea of how ideology works and how social roles are reproduced.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
1) to most of tumblr/twitter feminism, "media representation" is certainly important, so the contradiction when it comes to pornographic media is there regardless of the actual importance of the issue.
2) While I'd agree that Internet identity politics is too focused on the politics of media representation, your formulation above seems to me to swing too far in the other direction. If media representations were incapable of contributing to the creation of and shaping of desires, and played no role in the reproduction of social roles, then for example the entire advertising industry would not exist.
3) I think that it takes a particular kind of deliberate obtuseness not to see that the politics of pornographic media as produced by the actually existing porn industry are radically more misogynist than those common in the (undoubtedly also quite thoroughly sexist) mainstream media. Now which has more practical effect is a more complex question, but for people who accept that the media has some power to want to exclude pornographic media from that is at best incoherent and at worst straightforward special pleading.
2) While I'd agree that Internet identity politics is too focused on the politics of media representation, your formulation above seems to me to swing too far in the other direction. If media representations were incapable of contributing to the creation of and shaping of desires, and played no role in the reproduction of social roles, then for example the entire advertising industry would not exist.
3) I think that it takes a particular kind of deliberate obtuseness not to see that the politics of pornographic media as produced by the actually existing porn industry are radically more misogynist than those common in the (undoubtedly also quite thoroughly sexist) mainstream media. Now which has more practical effect is a more complex question, but for people who accept that the media has some power to want to exclude pornographic media from that is at best incoherent and at worst straightforward special pleading.
revol68
what, fucking what?
But I'm not aware they do deny misogyny in porn productions, they are pretty clear the majority of porn is saturated in it? Their line is that it shouldn't be inherent in pornography. They also argue that is possible to have s&m and rough role play done and shown in a non misogynistic manner. They aren't interested in a deconstruction of individuals sexual kinks (eg S&M etc) and how it ties into gendered and sexed power dynamics because historically it has been little more than the pathologisation of sexuality and provoked "slut shaming" and deeply divisive rows over how feminists should be having sex. Their perspective is that there is enough shame and guilt about sex and that these only act to further disempower women. Basically you can do what you want in the bedroom because it's escapist fantasy between consenting adults whilst being treated like a gimp by your boss is a completely different matter.
The sexism in porn is pretty obvious, it is almost a parody, the sexism in everyday tv shows matches much closer to how people actually experience it. You're more likely to be patronised by your manager or co worker than find yourself being cock slapped by 3 guys who were meant to be building your extension and indeed it is the mainstream day today sexism that sustains the sexism of pornography more than pornography sustains everyday sexism. Afterall you have to go look for porn most of the time, whilst things like page 3 and passive female roles are ubiquitous, they are part of the social conversation and landscape in the way your grubby internet history isn't.
Also I think the argument about removing page 3 is that it is a boycott, consumer pressure as opposed to a state ban which Laurie opposes for things like fantasy rape porn, no matter how distasteful she finds it, so there is no necessary contradiction.
revol68
what, fucking what?
and saying all that, I do find the fixation on media representation, on deconstructions of this or that tv show or album to be worn out tedious shit that both reflects and perpeuates a collective powerlessness to confront day to day material conditions that uphold womens inequality and has seen them overwhelmingly affected by cuts to services, benefits and public service wage freezes, and that's before we get to how reproductive and "pink collar" work is so poorly paid.
And like I keep saying the way many feminists (and indeed liberals and lefties in general) talk about the media you imagine they take men and women to be zombies, swallowing sexist ideology and acting it out, this of course misses out how people critically engage with media and also how sexism isn't just something imposed top down but is produced in real social relations and structural power.
And like I keep saying the way many feminists (and indeed liberals and lefties in general) talk about the media you imagine they take men and women to be zombies, swallowing sexist ideology and acting it out, this of course misses out how people critically engage with media and also how sexism isn't just something imposed top down but is produced in real social relations and structural power.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I'd extend "media representation" to networking sites such as twitter, too.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You would think so, but in fact the answer is sometimes, when pressed, and then the tendency is to ignore that acknowledgment and get back to treating criticisms of the porn industry as consisting of a mixture of "slutshaming", anti sex worker prejudice (conflating the worker with the industry is a specialty), prudery and "pathologisation" of the sexuality and "kinks" of individual consumers.
There is also the tendency to insist on arguing about some ideal type of pornography, rather than pornography the actually existing institution produced by an actually existing industry.
revol68 said:
Yes this is the core of their argument. And it's wrong in a number of ways in one sentence. Firstly, people's sex lives behind their bedroom doors are part of their "real" lives and can very often be abusive. Secondly, the bedroom door is not an airtight seal between one part of people's lives and another. Thirdly, these same people are very keen on the idea that every other "escapist fantasy" in the media does actually matter. And fourthly, when it comes to filmed porn, the "escapist fantasy" is someone's job. ie someone is precisely being "treated like a gimp by their boss" so some twitter radical with a libertarian streak when it comes to the sex industry can have an empowering wank.
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