Urban v's the Commentariat

[xenon]

It can't skirt all employment law by making it less than one (or two years' since last April) duration - for example it can't skirt NMW legislation. Trouble with that, though, is that interns would have to lodge a claim to get a ruling. Hardly any of them do.

If the apprenticeship lasts for the requisite amount of time, the employer can pay less than minimum wage though right?

 

[cesare]

If the apprenticeship lasts for the requisite amount of time, the employer can pay less than minimum wage though right?

I was talking about interns there. But for apprenticeships there's a specific NMW rate: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

For interns, if it's actually a proper job just badged as an internship, NMW rates apply. More info here: https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns

 

[DaveCinzano]

Phil Chamberlain ‏@philchamberlain
@RedPeppermag: Glad to see the @phonecoop is a Living Wage Employer: http://www.redpepper.org.uk/10-ways-to-support-red-pepper/ … <Has Red Pepper started paying freelancers?
1:43 PM - 22 Aug 13

https://twitter.com/philchamberlain/status/370526638582534144

LOLETC

 

[DrRingDing]

I was talking about interns there. But for apprenticeships there's a specific NMW rate: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

£2.65?! Fuck.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If the apprenticeship lasts for the requisite amount of time, the employer can pay less than minimum wage though right?

Not quite.

Pay and right to minimum wage

Apprentices are paid from the first day of their apprenticeship and they’re entitled to the National Minimum Wage.
The current minimum wage rate for an apprentice is £2.65 per hour. This rate applies to apprentices aged 16 to 18 and those aged 19 or over who are in their first year.
Apprentices aged 19 or over who have completed their first year must be paid at least the minimum wage rate for their age.

So over 19 or over and in second year or later, minimum wage applies. First year, whatever your age, it's £2.65, but you are paid for the days you spend on training courses.

 

[xenon]

Thanks. So an 18 YO on an "apprenticeship" is being paid the minimum wage. It's a lower minimum.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, and an any-year-old in their first year is on the lower minimum.

 

[cesare]

That's a minimum for employers to pay though, not a target.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thanks. So an 18 YO on an "apprenticeship" is being paid the minimum wage. It's a lower minimum.

you didn't read his post. you missed the bit where he said

So over 19 or over and in second year or later

 

[xenon]

you didn't read his post. you missed the bit where he said

I took note but had my cousin in mind when replying.

 

[Pickman's model]

I took note but had my cousin in mind when replying.

your cousin would have done a better job

 

[xenon]

your cousin would have done a better job

A better job of replying, presumably? That makes no sense.

 

[Pickman's model]

A better job of replying, presumably? That makes no sense.

of keeping focussed on the matter at hand and not veering off at a tangent.

 

[xenon]

of keeping focussed on the matter at hand and not veering off at a tangent.

I can not comment on their ability to remain focussed on a select area of the issue at hand, unsure how you can assess same either.

That is the last I'll say relating to this dull aside.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can not comment on their ability to remain focussed on a select area of the issue at hand, unsure how you can assess same either.

it can't be worse than your wandering attention.

 

[Red Cat]

I agree with you. I didn't see any personal threats on the twitter timeline she posted, just strong criticism of her blog post. But I'm sure she must have had that kind of thing before and it is, as you say, pretty serious.
What got to me was the gross lack of self awareness. The criticism is because she wrote about the work of a black, female blogger and said she was 'everything wrong with modern feminism'. Some people on twitter have noticed that when she's of a mind to police feminism, Ms Lewis seems to go in for criticising black writers (shades of Hugo Schwyzer). In that context, explicitly linking herself to anti-racist struggle seemed to me incredibly crass. But that's the Oxbridge brass neck for you.

Sorry, I shouldn't have commented as I don't really know who she is other than that she's an Oxbridge educated writer, who uses twitter, and then writes about what she writes on twitter.....

I know she's not talking about unpaid labour in the home and its role in capitalism, none of them talk about that do they?

 

[The Pale King]

Sorry, I shouldn't have commented as I don't really know who she is other than that she's an Oxbridge educated writer, who uses twitter, and then writes about what she writes on twitter.....

I know she's not talking about unpaid labour in the home and its role in capitalism, none of them talk about that do they?

I think you just summed her up quite pithily actually not sure there's more to know..

And no, not really.

 

[equationgirl]

Hand up if you know someone who is or was an intern. I don't.

We have one in our department at work. We're trying to get her paid but as she's there because of her family connections rather than because of an official opportunity, she's basically off the books. Which I hate, and can do very little about.

My boss has made sure she gets her travel expenses, and we don't insist she works a full week. We're also buying her software while she's here, so she'll get some decent stuff for her degree course (she's going back to uni soon).

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I agree with you. I didn't see any personal threats on the twitter timeline she posted, just strong criticism of her blog post. But I'm sure she must have had that kind of thing before and it is, as you say, pretty serious.
What got to me was the gross lack of self awareness. The criticism is because she wrote about the work of a black, female blogger and said she was 'everything wrong with modern feminism'. Some people on twitter have noticed that when she's of a mind to police feminism, Ms Lewis seems to go in for criticising black writers (shades of Hugo Schwyzer). In that context, explicitly linking herself to anti-racist struggle seemed to me incredibly crass. But that's the Oxbridge brass neck for you.

I think you are being much too generous about the "strong criticism of her blog post" here. I've always assumed - on the basis largely of her New Statesman job and not any actual investigation - that Lewis is a useless liberal, but that doesn't make the kind of response she got even slightly reasonable. No, I didn't see any direct physical threats (although I only scanned through part of the vast pile of vitriolic responses), but a very high percentage of the responses either directly called her a racist or insinuated that she's a racist on the basis that she criticised a blog post by a "Woman of Colour". Even though the criticism had no particular connection to race in the first place. That's so unreasonable it's actually quite funny. Or at least its funny from the outside - it probably isn't so amusing when you are on the receiving end.

The twitter intersectionalists have not just adopted the ad hominem argument, they've made it into a central political principle.

 

[JHE]

Screaming Ray Cyst at whatever you dislike is also standard on Urban75. Twitter twits and intersectionalist sects didn't invent it. They are just following the example set by the remnants of the left, the shouty failed Trots and the tedious brow-beating failed Anarcho-Wotsits.

 

[butchersapron]

Aw, is everyone picking on little juan? And all he did was spend 10 years one here posting racist shite.

 

[free spirit]

£2.65?! Fuck.

we're paying our apprentice JIB rates

At College​

At work​

Apprentice (Stage 4)

£9.07​

£10.00​

Apprentice (Stage 3)

£8.53​

£9.30​

Apprentice (Stage 2)

£5.84​

£6.50​

Apprentice (Stage 1)

£4.05​

£4.60​

though we've skipped stage 1 given that he's 20 and has proven himself as a decent worker.

can't see any justification for paying anyone £2.65 an hour, the JIB rates are much more realistic, and must massively increase the chances the apprentice and employer will take it seriously rather than just viewing apprenticeships as a source of a cheap skivvy for as long as they'll stick it while being paid peanuts.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Screaming Ray Cyst at whatever you dislike is also standard on Urban75. Twitter twits and intersectionalist sects didn't invent it. They are just following the example set by the remnants of the left, the shouty failed Trots and the tedious brow-beating failed Anarcho-Wotsits.

Fuck off.

 

[The Pale King]

I think you are being much too generous about the "strong criticism of her blog post" here. I've always assumed - on the basis largely of her New Statesman job and not any actual investigation - that Lewis is a useless liberal, but that doesn't make the kind of response she got even slightly reasonable. No, I didn't see any direct physical threats (although I only scanned through part of the vast pile of vitriolic responses), but a very high percentage of the responses either directly called her a racist or insinuated that she's a racist on the basis that she criticised a blog post by a "Woman of Colour". Even though the criticism had no particular connection to race in the first place. That's so unreasonable it's actually quite funny. Or at least its funny from the outside - it probably isn't so amusing when you are on the receiving end.

The twitter intersectionalists have not just adopted the ad hominem argument, they've made it into a central political principle.

Maybe I am being too generous about that Nigel, I dunno. I don't use twitter at all so I'm feeling my way a bit here. But looking at Helen Lewis's post 'this is what it's like to get twitterstormed', I got half way down and it was all criticism of her previous blog where she takes to task someone who runs a much smaller blog than the New Statesman for being 'everything wrong with a certain strand of Feminism'. A bit before half way down someone called 'one woman wimmin mob' says "We all agree that Helen Lewis is a racist, transphobic bigot, right? Oh Hale Yes!!!" (I like the southern accent there, got to say). Otherwise it's mostly about her argument being shit. Now, my understanding (and I could be wrong correct me if so) is that there is some previous here between Lewis and some of these on twitter. Helen Lewis criticises lower circulation, less powerful bloggers than herself and holds them up for ridicule in front of her many followers (her 'thing' seems to be that everything must be very simple - 'footnote-heavy' and 'technical' are criticisms in H.L's world - which is odd as she went to Oxford and the people she is criticising didn't - perhaps that explains her patronising attitude to the hoi polloi). She Gets a mixture of critique and abuse back. Ignores the critique, writes a 'poor me' blog about the abuse, and compares herself to a victim of racism. So happens that the bloggers she's been picking on are black, and they notice this pattern. They also notice that the broadsheet gang all jump to H.L's defence pretty quickly by twittering their support and alerting their followers. To and fro ensues. Bottom line I don't think it's as simple as you are making it out to be.

What have we learned? Fucked if I know. And I'm no friend of the current intersectionalists, their politics are terrible.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Screaming Ray Cyst at whatever you dislike is also standard on Urban75. Twitter twits and intersectionalist sects didn't invent it. They are just following the example set by the remnants of the left, the shouty failed Trots and the tedious brow-beating failed Anarcho-Wotsits.

I wouldn't call you a racist.

You're more of a xenophobic wanker, frankly.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Laurie needs help with her homework, part 2,781:

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/371235176832983040

 

[8115]

The apprentice thing, I think the wages have to strike a balance between reflecting that it's not work, it is training and should be of high quality, and the fact that the apprentice is obviously working hard.

My worry is, if the wages are higher, employers will neglect the training obligation part of it, which is fairly significant (we have an apprentice at our work and she has a lot of content to study and learn). Also they might not take on people who need that bit of extra help and support, because they don't see it as worth it, and I have a feeling that it's these people who apprenticeships might be really transforming for.

 

[frogwoman]

saw this pile of shit in blackwell's bookshop in oxford the other day for over a tenner. I generally find world war 2 themed comedy/downfall parodies etc hilarious but a 12 year old could probably have come up with better humour and some of the cartoons are really pretty offensive.

that, and it's also designed by hipsters

 

[Maurice Picarda]

I don't think it's entirely without merit.

 

[J Ed]

I have Laurie's new book, anyone want it?