Urban v's the Commentariat

[cesare]

when he replies you'll need to go back and reread after five minutes as he's very keen on the editing this morning.

Will do, ta.

 

[ViolentPanda]

and there was me thinking it was because you were happy, cunt.

Nope, you weren't thinking at all, monkey-dick.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because language is always co-opted by power. Without change in power relations, change in language is just cosmetic at best.

Merci, Monsieur Foucault.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nope, you weren't thinking at all, monkey-dick.

what i find particularly disappointing is that you can be one of the most interesting posters on urban75 but then you post things like this which even revol68 would not stoop to.

 

[ska invita]

Just a point of fact - disability terminology in the UK changed because we (disabled people in the UK) agitated for it from the late '70s onward, not because some US academics supplied any impetus, and what was at issue was descriptiveness: "challenged" or "impaired" conveys that you have a difficulty, while "disabled" (until we re-defined it to mean that society disables us by not giving us a level playing field) simply conveys "broken", "sabotaged" or "switched off".

fair enough, im sure you are right - im not an expert on PC, im just trying to make a general point that what happens in the ivory towers of academia does have an influence in the real world. The critical idea that power is exercised through language has a history in (leftist) academic theory (going back to Foucault? Further?).

ETA: im also not trying to say all similar social changes orginate from classrooms, but that theory does have a synergetic influence

 

[ViolentPanda]

I thought it was the ur-continent from which the landmasses we know today were formed.

No, that's pain au chocolat.

 

[8ball]

What argument? That it exists?

The argument that there is such a thing as a male and female 'essence' to a person that exists in a simple dualistic relationship to the male or female status of a body. You need to accept that argument for ideas about being 'a man in a woman's body' (or vice versa) to have any meaning.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Look at post-modernist political theorists; they've been largely ignored by society as a whole.

Just wanted to say halle-fucking-lujah to that.

 

[Idris2002]

One angle to consider about the emergence of PC on US university campuses is that in the late 80s and early 90s many of these places had severe problems with violence against minority students. As this is America we're talking about, they were terrified this would open them to lawsuits - hence the new policies.

There's supposed to be a Galileo quote, in Latin, that translates "the facade conforms to the demands of the day, the interior to one's choice". I've not been able to find the original, even after many miles of hard googling. Pickman's model would you know that quote, maybe?

 

[revol68]

What's your pronouncement on intersex?

Pronouncement?

Not following how it directly relates, though I was at a talk by an intersex artist and they were talking about a campaign against forcing intersex people into male or female genders or sex, I did ask them what they thought of the medicalisation of gender dysphoria, they knowingly smiled and just said it was an individuals choice, I think they didn't want to offend anyone.

 

[Pickman's model]

fair enough, im sure you are right - im not an expert on PC, im just trying to make a general point that what happens in the ivory towers of academia does have an influence in the real world. The critical idea that power is exercised through language has a history in (leftist) academic theory (going back to Foucault? Further?).

ETA: im also not trying to say all similar social changes orginate from classrooms, but that theory does have a synergetic influence

back to nietzsche if not further

 

[TruXta]

The argument that there is such a thing as a male and female 'essence' to a person that exists in a simple dualistic relationship to the male or female status of a body. You need to accept that argument for ideas about being 'a man in a woman's body' (or vice versa) to have any meaning.

I'm not so sure that gender dysphoria or similar phenomena are conditional on gender essentialism.

 

[J Ed]

get's you more oppression points though.

Loads of intersectional points without the bother of a sex change op or fucking people you don't actually fancy or even dressing in a way that leads to bigots giving you nasty looks

 

[cesare]

Just a point of fact - disability terminology in the UK changed because we (disabled people in the UK) agitated for it from the late '70s onward, not because some US academics supplied any impetus, and what was at issue was descriptiveness: "challenged" or "impaired" conveys that you have a difficulty, while "disabled" (until we re-defined it to mean that society disables us by not giving us a level playing field) simply conveys "broken", "sabotaged" or "switched off".

I think this is a good example of how language and terminology has altered/been altered by "us" to more appropriately convey/describe - in this case - disability terminology. I don't have a problem with applying that principle to gender/sex terminology. Where I get frustrated is the seeming focus on self identification rather than collective action.

 

[revol68]

Why can't it be both a biological and a social issue? It's ironic you say this because gender dysphoria was earlier seen as a purely mental disorder, but now the medico-legals are moving towards a more biological stance, in part it seems to me because that makes it easier for people to accept. Not sure who drove that push tho, whether it came from the bottom or the top, so to speak.

A big driving force is medical insurance companies and what they will and won't pay for, hence the push to define it along a biological/medical model, complete with talk of sexed brains being out of step with genital sex.

I can sympathise with the situation they find themselves in but can't accept the argument or the reactionary notions about sex and gender that flow from it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what i find particularly disappointing is that you can be one of the most interesting posters on urban75 but then you post things like this which even revol68 would not stoop to.

Your disappointment is as meaningless to me as a dwyer "proof of G-d's existence" thread is to humanity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think this is a good example of how language and terminology has altered/been altered by "us" to more appropriately convey/describe - in this case - disability terminology. I don't have a problem with applying that principle to gender/sex terminology. Where I get frustrated is the seeming focus on self identification rather than collective action.

Tell me about it!!!
That's pretty much why I see the emergence of identity politics as a general political movement as a powerful influence on the undermining of "the left" as a cohesive political force - all that energy turned from resistance to factionalism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If it were silent brooding racism would be a cultural norm.

You mean that it isn't?

 

[ska invita]

A "cultural norm" is a something accepted across a culture - that has been normalised in everyday use by everybody - like saying "pardon me" after belching, or holding a door open for someone. It's not merely something that's been accepted by part of the culture.

but not everyones says pardon me - the extent to which different words have gained primacy is different in different cases - some are much more prevalent than others - some words we still have to look up to find out what they mean...

I think i see what you mean though, these terms arent prevalent enough to be described as norms - perhaps only a few are. I still think the spirit of PC is normalised, even if people aren't comfortable or 'up to date' with the latest vocabulary. I remember a long-time football supporter (white hetro male ) complaining how he felt he couldnt sing his favourite chants any more for fear of offense - not because he'd been told not to, but because he'd internalised the self-policing of it.

 

[8ball]

I'm not so sure that gender dysphoria or similar phenomena are conditional on gender essentialism.

They don't have to be, but they are commonly articulated that way because that is the current accepted position of mainstream culture.

 

[TruXta]

A big driving force is medical insurance companies and what they will and won't pay for, hence the push to define it along a biological/medical model, complete with talk of sexed brains being out of step with genital sex.

Makes sense I suppose.

 

[Pickman's model]

Your disappointment is as meaningless to me as a dwyer "proof of G-d's existence" thread is to humanity.

good for you.

 

[revol68]

They don't have to be, but they are commonly articulated that way because that is the current accepted position of mainstream culture.

Yes which is also why Iran carries out more sex changes than any other country on earth.

 

[butchersapron]

You mean that it isn't?

A lot of them have blogs now! Silent no more!

 

[8ball]

Yes which is also why Iran carries out more sex changes than any other country on earth.

I didn't know that.

 

[cesare]

Tell me about it!!!
That's pretty much why I see the emergence of identity politics as a general political movement as a powerful influence on the undermining of "the left" as a cohesive political force - all that energy turned from resistance to factionalism.

Yes, I agree (and we've agreed on this before ). I'm doubtful that fighting fire with fire does anything more than get drawn into a spiralling descent of factionalism though, iyswim.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but not everyones says pardon me - the extent to which different words have gained primacy is different in different cases - some are much more prevalent than others - some words we still have to look up to find out what they mean...

I think i see what you mean though, these terms arent prevalent enough to be described as norms - perhaps only a few are. I still think the spirit of PC is normalised, even if people aren't comfortable or 'up to date' with the latest vocabulary. I remember a long-time football supporter (white hetro male ) complaining how he felt he couldnt sing his favourite chants any more for fear of offense - not because he'd been told not to, but because he'd internalised the self-policing of it.

Damn Foucault and his "self-governance!

 

[J Ed]

Yes, I agree (and we've agreed on this before ). I'm doubtful that fighting fire with fire does anything more than get drawn into a spiralling descent of factionalism though, iyswim.

So what's the solution? How do you deal with this stuff? Ignore it?

 

[butchersapron]

but not everyones says pardon me - the extent to which different words have gained primacy is different in different cases - some are much more prevalent than others - some words we still have to look up to find out what they mean...

I think i see what you mean though, these terms arent prevalent enough to be described as norms - perhaps only a few are. I still think the spirit of PC is normalised, even if people aren't comfortable or 'up to date' with the latest vocabulary. I remember a long-time football supporter (white hetro male ) complaining how he felt he couldnt sing his favourite chants any more for fear of offense - not because he'd been told not to, but because he'd internalised the self-policing of it.

That's pretty much an example of non-internalisation.

 

[revol68]

Sorry, its more than every country bar Thailand.