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Urban v's the Commentariat

"I've no idea what Cryer was like in the 70s (tbh I've always loathed "comedians"), but that is the serious point he wanted to make today. Were he still alive what serious point would Manning have quoted? There's a litmus test there, which harking back to his 70s comedy timing & delivery manages to miss completely."

Cryer's comedy was always safe anodyne pap...not that he ever had an issue with Irish jokes or comedy 'Indian' accents as far as I remember.

Also, I doubt Cryer was even born in 1935. But even so, Cryer was speaking in 2013 on the BBC. Those kind of sentiments are more or less obligatory. I think you're another applying anachronistic judgements.
 
Yes, there has been an advance on that

Yeah, there're always 'advances'. It doesn't ever stop them looking stale-or even reassessed as offensive-after several decades of revisionism. Or are you claiming all present mainstream comedy tropes will remain 'sound' forever? Things change. That doesn't mean we have to look back and condemn our old selves as unreconstructed muppets.
 
wiki gives his dob as 23 March 1935, maybe it's airbrushed but who cares about Cryer, not I. I don't care what jokes he used to tell, for much the reasons you've been expounding, any more than about what manning used to do. That was then and it became now. you haven't answered my question, did Manning move with wider society or did he cling on to attitudes the rest were shaking off as unacceptable.
 
Yeah, there're always 'advances'. It doesn't ever stop them looking stale-or even reassessed as offensive-after several decades of revisionism. Or are you claiming all present mainstream comedy tropes will remain 'sound' forever? Things change. That doesn't mean we have to look back and condemn our old selves as unreconstructed muppets.
You are ever so boring
 
wiki gives his dob as 23 March 1935, maybe it's airbrushed but who cares about Cryer, not I. I don't care what jokes he used to tell, for much the reasons you've been expounding, any more than about what manning used to do. That was then and it became now. you haven't answered my question, did Manning move with wider society or did he cling on to attitudes the rest were shaking off as unacceptable.

He clung on to his attitudes and became an embarrassment. Playing to the cheap seats and all that. I'm pretty sure Ronnie's already said something along those lines.

Still a good guy though.
 
wiki gives his dob as 23 March 1935, maybe it's airbrushed but who cares about Cryer, not I. I don't care what jokes he used to tell, for much the reasons you've been expounding, any more than about what manning used to do. That was then and it became now. you haven't answered my question, did Manning move with wider society or did he cling on to attitudes the rest were shaking off as unacceptable.

No he didn't but I'd already said that. Any time there's a major societal shift in attitudes, some people get caught on the wrong side of it. Very often it's more through age, ignorance, isolation or generally being outside the loop or zeitgeist as much of it being evidence that they're simply a wrong'un. No, Manning didn't change but nor did millions of others who didn't appear on television and 'advertise' their reactionary stance. Most of them are dead now. But, at heart, most were basically thoroughly decent people who were simply of a different era.
Maybe we should nip round and scrawl 'fascist' on their graves?
 
Yeah, there're always 'advances'. It doesn't ever stop them looking stale-or even reassessed as offensive-after several decades of revisionism. Or are you claiming all present mainstream comedy tropes will remain 'sound' forever? Things change. That doesn't mean we have to look back and condemn our old selves as unreconstructed muppets.

Why are you using all this we and us stuff ronnie,it sounds like your trying to establish some sort of definite narrative of what"we" were all like in the seventies.The uk wasn't a homogenous place then and it's not now.
According to my ma my oul fella wouldn't have shit like the comedians ,love thy neighbour or manning on in the house,in my memory he wouldn't have a british or irish tabloid in the house either,that was because of definite stands he took because of his politics,and i'm glad about that and proud of it.
People like my dad have existed through history,get over it and try stop tarring everyone with your very broad brush eh?
 
He was never a good guy by any standards. He was a nasty piece of work.

He wasn't though. He was well liked. And well liked for a reason. I can understand why you're not keen on his act even though he did know how to tell a joke, but he was a genuinly big hearted guy who was well thought of.
 
Why are you using all this we and us stuff ronnie,it sounds like your trying to establish some sort of definite narrative of what"we" were all like in the seventies.The uk wasn't a homogenous place then and it's not now.
According to my ma my oul fella wouldn't have shit like the comedians ,love thy neighbour or manning on in the house,in my memory he wouldn't have a british or irish tabloid in the house either,that was because of definite stands he took because of his politics,and i'm glad and about that and proud of it.
People like my dad have existed through history,get over it and try stop tarring everyone with your very broad brush eh?

So look up the viewing figures. Your dad's the exception. If I'm applying a broad brush, at least I'm applying authentic paint.

Which still stands once you've all queued to chip in with "my dad too" and "my auntie Nellie".
 
He wasn't though. He was well liked. And well liked for a reason. I can understand why you're not keen on his act even though he did know how to tell a joke, but he was a genuinly big hearted guy who was well thought of.
Not by me, not by my parents, not by anyone whose opinion I respect. He wasn't even funny. He gave some people a break in comedy. So fucking what? He was a shitcandle.
 
He wasn't though. He was well liked. And well liked for a reason. I can understand why you're not keen on his act even though he did know how to tell a joke, but he was a genuinly big hearted guy who was well thought of.
you're separating the man from his act, which i don't think you can do. it's like saying he was only racist for money, if you didn't pay him, he wasn't racist.
 
So look up the viewing figures. Your dad's the exception. If I'm applying a broad brush, at least I'm applying authentic paint.

Which still stands once you've all queued to chip in with "my dad too" and "my auntie Nellie".
Give us the viewing figures ronnie.I don't have an aunt nellie thanks
 
thanks Frances. good guy? not on that yardstick, which is one I apply to changing public attitudes.

Ronnie is right that the current commentariat and their more popular cousins, comedians, will be condemned by the prism of long hindsight. And, by extension, so will the audiences who lap up their stuff. What we don't know is where the tide is going, and which side of it each of them, and of us, will be on.
 
you're separating the man from his act, which i don't think you can do. it's like saying he was only racist for money, if you didn't pay him, he wasn't racist.

He wasn't really racist - He allowed himself (wrongly as it turned out) to become the racist caricature that his detractors painted him as. Out of sheer bloody-mindedness. He took it all the way & went to his grave unrepentant. I've got nothing but admiration for him for that.

You're right though, about me separating the man from his act, but I only did that coz OU was maintaining that Bernard couldn't have posssibly been a nice guy when he was offstage. But he was.
 
He also gave us employment case law for years:

Freda Burton and Sonia Rhule, who are both black, were employed as casual waitresses at De Vere's Pennine Hotel in Derby on 1 November 1994, working at a dinner organised by the City of Derby Round Table. The Round Table had booked Bernard Manning as the speaker. On duty that evening was the hotel manager and two assistant managers.

The two women went into the banqueting hall to clear the tables during Mr Manning's performance. They heard him make jokes about the sexual organs of black men and their sexual abilities. He used words such as "wog, nigger and sambo". When Mr Manning spotted the waitresses, he remarked "very nice, that's how I like my cocoa". He then said words to the effect that "darkies were good at giving blow jobs". Although the women were considerably upset and offended, they carried on working. When the show was over, one of the guests asked Miss Rhule "what a black woman's vagina tasted like". She complained to an assistant manager. Meanwhile, another guest tried to put his arms round Miss Burton and made racially and sexually offensive remarks to her. The assistant manager saw this and brought the incident to an end. He apologised to the two women for what had happened. However, they took the view that if the management had vetted Mr Manning and his material, they would not have been placed in such a "prejudiced atmosphere". They brought complaints under the Race Relations Act 1976.

The industrial tribunal dismissed the complaints. The tribunal said that it was "in no doubt whatever" that the employees had suffered a "detriment" within the meaning of the Act. "It was not, however, the respondent which subjected them to it."

Held (allowing the appeal):
An employer subjects an employee to the detriment of racial harassment if it permits harassment to occur in circumstances in which it can control whether it happens or not. Where the harasser is a third party and not an employee for whose actions the employer would be vicariously liable, the tribunal should ask itself whether the event in question was something which was sufficiently under the control of the employer that it could, by the application of good employment practice, have prevented the harassment or reduced the extent of it. Therefore, the industrial tribunal erred in holding that the employer had not discriminated against the appellant black waitresses by subjecting them to racial harassment in the course of work from Bernard Manning, the guest speaker at a Round Table dinner, and from some of the diners, since it would have been good employment practice for the manager to warn his assistants to keep a look-out for Mr Manning and withdraw the waitresses if things became unpleasant.
 
you're separating the man from his act, which i don't think you can do. it's like saying he was only racist for money, if you didn't pay him, he wasn't racist.

That's a valid point. So would you ban Wagner...or just condemn the audience as racist? Pulp all of Evelyn Waugh...or just blacklist anyone who reads him?
If you really can't separate a person from their work then you're dismissing 99% of world culture.
 
Yeah...there were loads...and you've come up with one.
Two Ronnie's? Morcombe and Wise? Yeah, there was loads of bland, safe vanilla comedy.
haha! ronnie barkers wordplay was a thousand times more inventive than manning. eric morecambe was a million times funnier without even opening his mouth, superb timing.
manning told the sort of shit jokes that unfunny people at work who think they're funny tell. jokes that don't rely on timing or any particular skill to deliver. jokes children could tell.

vanilla? as if manning was cutting edge or dangerous or something. you really are talking nonsense.
 
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