Ukraine

[sunny jim]

Why do you think that i said lviv - why did i include the ideological base of the ukranian far-right?

Where did i call the people in dontetsk fascists? The fact is, that is the logic of people like jim - but with a little twist - all the ones he doesn't like are fascist - and purely fascist.

Thats because they (Right Sector, Svoboda) are fascist - purely fascist.

 

[butchersapron]

Well done Jim. You've outed fascists as fascists, your spotting skills haven't deserted you. The problem is that you're now trying to take anyone who doesn't agree with you over anything else being supportive of those fascist, as fascists sympathisers. So maybe you're fascist spotting skills aren't so hot after all. It's just so ridiculously childish, an anti fascist performance put on for all to see.

 

[sunny jim]

Because I have seen little proof for this (and please don't start a link marathon to RT or similar media)

1. Yes there is much resistance to the IMF's austerity measures but this has been triggered by years of mis-management and bad governance so the amount of blame to be put on the present occupants of government buildings is somewhat limited.
2. Neo-nazism and connections with the above occupants is a worrying factor and should not be ignored or accepted however the scale of this is hard to assess when working through the propaganda from both sides as I stated above
3. CIA connection again hard to assess due to lack of information in open media, to state the level of interference (while no doubt it is there) with the conviction that some do is pure speculation.

1. The crisis started when the Yakanovich government decided to join with the Russian backed market rather than what the opposition wanted the EU and the IMF. So the IMF bit cant be blamed on the previous government.
2. Halle-fucking-lujah! For the first time in 191 pages you have actually said neo nazism is a 'worrying factor'. Congratulations!
3. There's plenty of evidence from the Nuland phone call to the director of the CIA going to Kiev under a false name to point to large scale CIA involvement in the regime change.

 

[Teaboy]

1. The crisis started when the Yakanovich government decided to join with the Russian backed market rather than what the opposition wanted the EU and the IMF. So the IMF bit cant be blamed on the previous government.
.

To be fair the crisis has pretty much been going on since Ukraine became independent. A succession of nothing but terrible and corrupt governments has brought Ukraine to the brink, this is just the latest stage which is now drawing in other countries.

 

[Fuchs66]

1. The crisis started when the Yakanovich government decided to join with the Russian backed market rather than what the opposition wanted the EU and the IMF. So the IMF bit cant be blamed on the previous government.

But what caused the necessity (in the opinion of the IMF) of austerity measures, I'm talking about root causes here.

2. Halle-fucking-lujah! For the first time in 191 pages you have actually said neo nazism is a 'worrying factor'. Congratulations!

Of course it is, I have never said anything to the contrary, I guess I just presume too much when it comes to the necessity of spoon-feeding people.

3. There's plenty of evidence from the Nuland phone call to the director of the CIA going to Kiev under a false name to point to large scale CIA involvement in the regime change.

This may be one of the possible reasons, but all this proves is that the CIA went to Kiev, neither you nor I know what the reason was and probably never will.

 

[ViolentPanda]

theres a few thousand militiamen,2000 at most , against 15000 with tanks and artillery, heli gunships. Taking their stand against the USA, IMF and a fascist militia at the orders of a right wing putsch . If they were actually russian troops nobody would even breath in their direction .

The only convolution that ends with any leftist backing that type of openly fascist vermin is purely ethnic..you hate russians more than anything else on gods earth.

Thanks for telling me what I believe.
As always, you're wrong.

Theres a couple of other fucking jokes on here so you arent alone.. Youve made clear were you stand so you can take yourself right off to fuck you joke
These are the arseholes that went into convolutions over a fucking quenelle...aa footballer scratching his fucking elbow. Neo nazi militias in europe and its good on them, cheering them on


fucking scum, running dogs

And you get a hard-on placing yourself as being above all that, don't you, wee man?

Oh, and if you can show one instance of neo-Nazi militias being cheered on by leftists on this site, I'll eat my fedora.
My hat's safe, though, and we both know it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What facts are you referring to exactly?

I said "a fact", not "facts". Do please try to not misrepresent me.

What insight does it add beyond the fact that 'some Ukrainians' and 'some Russians' are shooting each other right now?

That there's a deep-rooted antipathy seated behind some of the conflict between the two states.
Too Russophobe for you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

britain wiped out almost half our population by removing the food supply . Does that jsutify us wiping out protestants, hating protestants, being Natos invasion force, neo nazis, white priders...does it fuck. Its scum. WE lost millions too .

your a fucking embarassment. A disgrace pontificating about leftism and justifying this fascist shit..imf, nato, putsch and neo nazis

and you the pontificating little wankstain crowing about piss stained curs over a quenelle from some footballer, someone jiggling their elbow

fuck off you joke

take yourself off to fuck you sanctimionioius little prick

Said the sanctimonious little prick?

You're not very self-aware, are you?

 

[butchersapron]

Further to my post about miners above:

On 22 April a strike began at the six mines of PJSC "Krasnodonugol" in Krasnodon, region of Lugansk. The mines are owned by SCM, the company of Rinat Akhmetov, one of the country’s wealthiest businessmen and a key regional oligarch. 2000 miners gathered at the mine office, demanding the reinstatement of 30 miners who had been dismissed for participating in a rally in Lugansk. The striking miners demanded a wage increase to bring their wages up to the average wage of workers in the Donbas coalfield and the lifting of sanctions against their fellow miners.

The lugansk demo appears to have been against pro-russian actions that they think threaten the future of the mines and their work. Akhmetov, the boss is suspected by many of funding these moves but denies it. Any move by him here is simply going to be safeguarding his fortune and power against any possible outcome.

Vyacheslav, a night worker told the podrobnosti.ua news website:

"80% of miners did not go to work and now we have stormed the Krasnodonugol offices. The situation requires publicity; otherwise we all get fired tomorrow."

At 11 pm on 22 April, after unsuccessful negotiations with the managers Angelovski and Pimkin, the striking miners broke down the front door and seized the mine office building. They blocked the entrances to the building, obstructed the bus service, and then started building barricades.

Today, 23 April pickets of miners blocked the road and stopped the buses which drove the day shift to the mines. In addition, there is a continuing a rally at the plant. The Miners’ demands have expanded to include strict observation of health and safety regulations as well as changing of company management.

Anyway, the potential snowballing of here is pretty clear:

As a reporter, in PJSC "Krasnodonugol" are continuing negotiations with the strikers. They participated CEO of PJSC "Krasnodonugol" and representatives of the five mines, which are included in this association. At the moment, the main requirement - higher salaries to miners to commensurate salary was not only to those who sit in their offices, as well as those who work underground. In addition, the requirements of the observance of labor protection. Also, people are thinking about how to completely change the management of all business units. Now waiting for the decision of CEO. He promised to come out after the meeting to the miners. Recall that in the Luhansk region in the six mines "Krasnodonugol" corporation "Metinvest" yesterday, April 22, the miners' strike began . Today, April 23, at the square in front of the union "Krasnodonugol" gathered about 2,000 miners. "They did not go into the mine today! 30 min. Ago broke the front door and a group of people went inside! Demands the heads!" - Said an eyewitness.

 

[ViolentPanda]

all due respect, but partisanship aside . Im not on the side cheering on juntas, NATO, Banderites, IMF austerity, nazis and the CIA . Im supporting communists, miners,steelworkers, teachers etc.
And any single one of those geebags....VP..BA or DB...pipes up and says weres their support for nazis. Just ask them wheres their codemnation...non existant anywhere

this is the shit being taught to schoolkids now
hang the russians....theres a few on here perfectly fine with the sentiment

Except that it isn't non-existant.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or how about realising it's not a black and white, good guys - bad guys situation and that there are elements on both sides that deserve this enmity.

Oh, you're not allowed to have nuance in this debate. It's "you're either with us or against us" territory for some. Russians and pro-Russians = good, anything else = bad seems to be the way some think.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Funny how you dont seem to criticise the neo nazis of the new regime, why is that?

edit : If you're criticism was equal for both sides I could take your point but it never is.

Is your own criticism "equal on all sides", Jim?
Of course it isn't!

 

[ViolentPanda]

What does that obscure nonsense even mean?

It means that you're acting like a cock, demanding people be "equal on all sides", while not being at all impartial yourself.
Get some self-awareness, there's a good chap.

 

[Fuchs66]

Is your own criticism "equal on all sides", Jim?
Of course it isn't!

Of course it isn't I'm still waiting for a photo of a neo-nazi stroking a kitten to produce some balance in his posts.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or on Maidan Square a couple months ago...

How exactly are the rebels in Donetsk behaving differently from people during any other uprising ever? Or are all armed rebellions fascist now?

Well, lines and loyalties in other revolutions have sometimes been simpler, purely because the demography has been simpler, for a start.

 

[ViolentPanda]

1. The crisis started when the Yakanovich government decided to join with the Russian backed market rather than what the opposition wanted the EU and the IMF. So the IMF bit cant be blamed on the previous government.

The crisis started long before that.

All the above did was provoke the latest facet of an ongoing crisis.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To be fair the crisis has pretty much been going on since Ukraine became independent.

Quite.

A succession of nothing but terrible and corrupt governments has brought Ukraine to the brink, this is just the latest stage which is now drawing in other countries.

Arguably, this is "same old same old", as the conflicts over Ukraine as both a fiefdom, a proto-state and a state have always managed to draw other countries into the argument - usually to the detriment of the peoples of Ukraine, Poland and Russia.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Further to my post about miners above:



The lugansk demo appears to have been against pro-russian actions that they think threaten the future of the mines and their work. Akhmetov, the boss is suspected by many of funding these moves but denies it. Any move by him here is simply going to be safeguarding his fortune and power against any possible outcome.



Anyway, the potential snowballing of here is pretty clear:

Anti-Pro-Russian? fascists, the lot of them!
Mind you, Akhmetov "safeguarding his fortune" is standard robber-baron behaviour for capitalists, as is smarming the politicos. Like his oligarchic brethren, he's probably keeping both sides happy, in order to have friends in power whatever the outcome.

 

[butchersapron]

Here's an interesting read if you strip away the nonsense from the first few paragraphs - it gets better after that first Q&A i promise:

Madina Tlostanova: We are witnessing an alarming revival of old-fashioned geopolitics

MT: I think that for Ukrainians it is not a choice between Russia and the West but rather an attempt to take their future in their own hands. The point is not to see this division entirely through some Cold war East-West dichotomy. We have to be very careful not to slide into the black-and-white propaganda poring into the global media from both sides now. My Western colleagues complain about Western media demonizing Russia and we are sick and tired here of Russian media that is reverting to the basest forms of propaganda shamelessly manipulating collective complexes and cultural archetypes. In my view – and I am reproducing a famous Odessa saying here – both Russia and the West are worse – a grammatically incorrect but quite accurate phrase – there is nothing to chose from here, both positions are wrong. And what matters for me in this case is once again, the destiny of Ukrainians. In fact people both in Ukraine and in Russia are forced to make a simplistic choice between the West and Russia who demonize each other in the best cold war tradition. We are forced to live once again according to the infamous saying: those who are not with us are against us. I believe that life and world are much more complex than that and there are other options in front of Ukrainians and Russians as well and one of them is a decolonial option grounded in delinking from this black-and-white logic.

Interesting suggestion that ukanian nationalism developed out of anti-colonial politics - which given the people that our own wild anti-colonial boy has ended up supporting is worth a little think about.

 

[sunny jim]

Is your own criticism "equal on all sides", Jim?
Of course it isn't!

One side is out and out fascist, wolfgang runes, fascist salutes, praise and adoration of a nazi collaborator the lot - so of course I'm going to criticise them more than people who sing the Internationale, write Antifa on their flags and have anti fascist banners on their barricades.

 

[sunny jim]

It means that you're acting like a cock, demanding people be "equal on all sides", while not being at all impartial yourself.
Get some self-awareness, there's a good chap.

Go get some awareness yourself - why should I be equal in my criticism when one side is blatantly fascist/neo nazi?

 

[butchersapron]

Ah, the old wolfgang runes.

 

[sunny jim]

The crisis started long before that.

All the above did was provoke the latest facet of an ongoing crisis.

That was when the Maiden protests started - so its when this crisis started.

 

[sunny jim]

Ah, the old wolfgang runes.

Yes, the fucking Wolfgang runes - the ones favoured by those lovely chaps the SS. You know, the ones guilty of the holocaust.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, the fucking Wolfgang runes - the ones favoured by those lovely chaps the SS. You know, the ones guilty of the holocaust.

Have you a picture of such a thing?

 

[Teaboy]

That was when the Maiden protests started - so its when this crisis started.

That is massively over simplifying the history here. You cannot just pick a random event amongst many and say this is where it all started, well not unless you are hoping to be a TV historian.

 

[butchersapron]

The ongoing anti-oligarch protests that maidan were partially continuation of never happened - nor the things that they were in turn a reaction to. Takes some work turning anti-oligarch politics into reinstate the oligarch.

 

[ViolentPanda]

One side is out and out fascist, wolfgang runes, fascist salutes, praise and adoration of a nazi collaborator the lot -

"Wolfgang"? And it's not a rune, it's a sigil. Runes were alphabetic letters, not an invented symbol (or sigil) created to resemble a swastika.
BTW, the Banderists are Banderists because they adore Bandera (a Ukrainian who didn't even have a vaguely-Ukrainian name, but that's what Ukraine was and is about!). Other hard-rightists don't. Think of it a bit like the BNP not overtly adoring Hitler, as against the Birtish Movement, who did/do.

so of course I'm going to criticise them more than people who sing the Internationale, write Antifa on their flags and have anti fascist banners on their barricades.

So don't demand from others what you're not prepared to give yourself. It's rather self-righteous "look at me! Me a good anti-fascist!".

 

[rekil]

.

Yes, the fucking Wolfgang runes - the ones favoured by those lovely chaps the SS. You know, the ones guilty of the holocaust.

It's Wolfsangel m8.

Wolfgang Runes were a 4AD band iirc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Go get some awareness yourself - why should I be equal in my criticism when one side is blatantly fascist/neo nazi?

I'm not saying you should be, you twat, I'm saying have the self-awareness not to demand from others what you're not prepared to demand from yourself.
Apart from anything else, it makes you come across as a hypocrite.