Ukraine

[camouflage]

Technically-correct though, as those Russian personnel were in Russian bases in Crimea, on land leased from the Ukrainian govt, and as such, so-called "sovereign territory" under international precedent.
It's all fucking word games.

aye, let's hope it settles down at some point and goes back to being all fucking word games.

 

[Casually Red]

There isn't enough discussion on here about the geopolitical significance of events in Ukraine. Surely as socialists we should be discussing the dynamics behind inter-imperialist conflicts and how they relate to the economic crisis?

I take your point but this plainly isnt a war between Russia...which isnt an empire.. and the United states ..which is . This is a putschist junta comrpising neo nazi elements sending tanks into towns were its unelected writ is rejected by the local population . Its not fighting the Russian army either...as yet . Its fighting schoolteachers, steel workers, trade unionists , miners, farmers etc whove banded together in militias . Not a professional army.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Hahaha yeah Russia isn't a nation with a history of imperialism whatsoever...

You're a clown CR, go fuck off to the infowars forums with all the other right-wing conspiracy theorists, there's a good lad

 

[DairyQueen]

There isn't enough discussion on here about the geopolitical significance of events in Ukraine. Surely as socialists we should be discussing the dynamics behind inter-imperialist conflicts and how they relate to the economic crisis?

What is at stake in the Ukraine crisis is the USA capturing the European market for shale gas as a way to revive it's ailing economy. This is also the biggest threat posing Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, as the Russian economy is almost entirely dependent on energy exports. If they lose the European gas market, their economy will go into a severe recession, probably larger than the one they had after the Soviet Union broke up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ompanies-climate-change-crisis-shock-doctrine

This is what frustrates me the most. Joe Biden goes to Kyiv and blatantly interferes in domestic Ukrainian politics, effectively urging them to attack protestors. Absolutely unbelievable. Not a peep in the West. I think Tymoshenko even declined to meet with him. The entire strategy is to isolate Russia even further. Fuck whatever happens in Europe as a result.

 

[dylanredefined]

There isn't enough discussion on here about the geopolitical significance of events in Ukraine. Surely as socialists we should be discussing the dynamics behind inter-imperialist conflicts and how they relate to the economic crisis?

What is at stake in the Ukraine crisis is the USA capturing the European market for shale gas as a way to revive it's ailing economy. This is also the biggest threat posing Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, as the Russian economy is almost entirely dependent on energy exports. If they lose the European gas market, their economy will go into a severe recession, probably larger than the one they had after the Soviet Union broke up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ompanies-climate-change-crisis-shock-doctrine

Maybe Russia shouldn't scare it's customer base. Entering a long term energy contract with a country that might use it against you is a bad idea.

 

[DairyQueen]

Which is pretty much akin to your ability to judge a state whose primacy in the Soviet Union actually killed millions of Ukrainians too, in about the same amount of time it took the Nazis.
Of course, remembering the Holodomor having occurred is inconvenient, when you're trying to simplistically label people.

Well, if you are going to count the dead for point scoring which part of Ukraine was worst affected during Holodomor? Let's forget what happened in Russia during that time of course.

 

[DairyQueen]

Maybe Russia shouldn't scare it's customer base. Entering a long term energy contract with a country that might use it against you is a bad idea.

He says as Ukraine signs away its sovereignty to the IMF, for its own good...

 

[dylanredefined]

He says as Ukraine signs away its sovereignty to the IMF, for its own good...

Well if your going to get fucked over by a genocidal regime it helps to vary who does it to you

 

[DairyQueen]

What?

 

[Casually Red]

Well, if you are going to count the dead for point scoring which part of Ukraine was worst affected during Holodomor?

hes pretty much justifying support for neo nazism today on the basis of Stalinist crimes 70 years ago . He wouldnt engage in this outright rubbish if the targets for neo nazi aggression were any other ethnic group bar Russian .

Right Sector leader Yarosh, now a junta security minister, has now moved his base of operations east into Dnepropetrovsk . He reckons its a better spot to tackle the Kremlin infection from . And is recruiting yet another militia in the area . So weve a neo nazi minister empowered by a putsch recruiting paramiliaries to crush fellow Ukrainians he regards as a disease or germs as opposed to human beings with greivances . That will end well .
But its fine, because of what Stalin did .

http://rt.com/news/154452-right-sector-yarosh-unit/

 

[Casually Red]

aye, let's hope it settles down at some point and goes back to being all fucking word games.

Doubtful . The Geneva agreement is gone now, not that it had much hope because the people in eastern Ukraine werent even allowed to go to it . In response to the juntas onslaught against the local population, and indeed Ukrainian units moving to the border to target Russian troops, Russia is now mobilising its troops for drills.

http://rt.com/news/154588-russia-drill-ukraine-operation/

 

[dylanredefined]

What?

USSR and The Nazis both got to play with Ukraine now the IMF get to play. Their a little more subtle than just dig a pit and fill it with bodies still get a great body count given half a chance.

 

[Casually Red]

This is what frustrates me the most. Joe Biden goes to Kyiv and blatantly interferes in domestic Ukrainian politics, effectively urging them to attack protestors. Absolutely unbelievable. Not a peep in the West. I think Tymoshenko even declined to meet with him. The entire strategy is to isolate Russia even further. Fuck whatever happens in Europe as a result.

I think its not so much urging but ordering . The US has invested 5 billion..well billions more now...in this exercise . Its not going to see that amount of time effort and money pipped at the post by a few militiamen and uppity villagers angry about their votes being stolen . The US pull the juntas purse strings, they rely on the US for everything from money to international legitmacy..something they didnt get from the Ukrainian people . They even rely on their own militias in Ukraine as opposed to state forces. In my view theyre doing precisely what Biden told them .
Remember he was telling Russia they had days to comply to bring the protests to an end . Effectively that was a threat from the white house to the protestors to surrender or else.

Absolutely unbelievable. Not a peep in the West

this is were the fake neo nazi leaflets, fake special forces and fake Tatar expulsions the western media have dutifully swallowed as mass propaganda come in . Nobody gives a shit what happens these people . Theyre Russian troops and ethnic cleansers as far as the western public is concerned.
Certainly as far as U75 lefties are concerned too .

 

[camouflage]

Hahaha yeah Russia isn't a nation with a history of imperialism whatsoever...

You're a clown CR, go fuck off to the infowars forums with all the other right-wing conspiracy theorists, there's a good lad

Casually Red is a rightwing conspiracy theorist.

 

[seventh bullet]

Well, if you are going to count the dead for point scoring which part of Ukraine was worst affected during Holodomor? Let's forget what happened in Russia during that time of course.

There are different factors contributing to famine conditions in different parts of the USSR, but as I said before on this thread, proportionately it was the Kazakhs who suffered a bigger loss of life than Ukraine during the collectivisation drive and requisition measures imposed by the central authorities in the 'socialist offensive.' Famine affected others parts of the USSR, and like you say, several parts of Russia too.

 

[DairyQueen]

There are different factors contributing to famine conditions in different parts of the USSR, but as I said before on this thread, proportionately it was the Kazakhs who suffered a bigger loss of life than Ukraine during the collectivisation drive and requisition measures imposed by the central authorities in the 'socialist offensive.' Famine affected others parts of the USSR, and like you say, several parts of Russia too.

Apologies for the digression but I think Armatya Sen made the point that cumulatively the famines of the British Empire (maybe even just India) alone actually accounted for more deaths than all the famines that had occurred in both the Soviet Union and PR China combined, and that these, like the famines in the communist countries, could be just as easily be blamed on the authorities at the time. Didn't Winston Churchill even come out with some outrageous statement at the time?

seventh bullet - do you know any good books on Holodomor? Particularly one that concentrates on statistics?

 

[seventh bullet]

I think you misunderstood my post. Ukraine has been given plenty of attention with regard to the Soviet Union, and the the case put forward of genocidal intent particularly. I guess we could digress and talk about the problems of the term genocide in international law and the political capital to be made from the suffering of people.

 

[co-op]

The word 'holodomor' was only coined in the 1970s by right wing anti-soviet US-Ukrainians. It was well received at the time by the Reaganite new-right naturally enough.

 

[seventh bullet]

I don't think it was genocide.

 

[DairyQueen]

Oh, I am just not sure if it was genocide or not. My understanding of that famine was that it was largely the result of Soviet planning decisions, but whether there was any genocidal intent would be very difficult to prove. I can understand why a Ukrainian might make such a claim.

The reasoning behind my previous post was that there are Western countries that could probably be accused of similar crimes on frighteningly similar grounds (the Irish/Highland Potato Famine comes to mind, and I can understand why Gaels might make such a claim - there are other, more recent examples in European/Imperial history). It was merely to highlight the problems with using Nazi Germany and not much better examples closer to home as a comparison.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ive simplistically labelled openly neo nazi and far right organisations and militias as such . Ive simplistically labelled a western backed putschist junta comprising such elements as such, because thats what it is . At no time have I ever labelled any section of the ukrainian population as anything . And if youve any evidence I ever have feel free to show it .

I haven't mentioned "sections" of the population.
having problems eading, again?

Im happy though to simplistically label a number of British leftists on here as fucking wankers, happy to condemn and deride large swathes of the Ukrainian population for standing up against such a junta , refusing to recognise their legitmacy and taking steps to arm themselves and defend themselves and their towns from them . For which theyve recieved nowt but scorn and sometimes open hatred from absolute wankers on here calling themselves leftists, in fact who regard themselves as the font of true socialism and smell their own right on farts in public . Who havent a single word of condemnation for the fact tanks and helicopter gunships are now being used by a junta against its own population with its American backers open encouragement .
Other labels that comes to mind are running dogs and Russophobes. Because there doesnt seem to be any other explanation for that . Its pretty mindboggling frankly .

I know you're happy to simplistically label.
It's ALL you do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I take your point but this plainly isnt a war between Russia...which isnt an empire..

So, no imperialist behaviour by Russia since the Soviet Union ended? I'm sure Chechens and others would disagree, as would the Central Asian republics that found the Russians trying to muscle in on their diplomatic and economic relations with China over the last 15 years.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, if you are going to count the dead for point scoring which part of Ukraine was worst affected during Holodomor? Let's forget what happened in Russia during that time of course.

What happened in Russia is what caused the deaths in Ukraine. I'm not taliking about the (mostly unprovable, though eminently debatable) theories about Kremlin manipulation of rations to punish Ukrainians for resisting the Revolution, by the way.
Russia's crops failed (and we can argue till the cows come home whether that was the fault of weather, or of collectivisation, or of a combination of the two), so resources got drawn on to keep the core of the Soviet empire (somewhat) fed.
Russian lives were bought at the cost of Ukrainian deaths.
I'm not saying "forget what happened in Russia", and I think you're pathetic for implying that I was saying it. I'm saying "look to history. Ukrainians died so that Russians could live".

 

[ViolentPanda]

USSR and The Nazis both got to play with Ukraine now the IMF get to play. Their a little more subtle than just dig a pit and fill it with bodies still get a great body count given half a chance.

Interestingly, Germany and Russia were the states most opposed to a Ukrainian state. The Poles were a bit more divided about it.
Why Ukrainians would expect anything but fine words from the US, though, puzzles me. History shows us that while the US talks a good deal about Ukraine, historically they've bricked it in terms of doing anything.

 

[DairyQueen]

I'm saying "look to history. Ukrainians died so that Russians could live".

What good does that do? What is the purpose of saying that?

History shows us that while the US talks a good deal about Ukraine, historically they've bricked it in terms of doing anything.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The word 'holodomor' was only coined in the 1970s by right wing anti-soviet US-Ukrainians. It was well received at the time by the Reaganite new-right naturally enough.

My great-grandma, who lost over half her family to the famine (and then the rest to the Nazis and their Ukrainian fascist helpers a decade later), called it for what it was - callous, uncaring realpolitik.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What good does that do? What is the purpose of saying that?

What good does it do? It puts a fact on the table. Something that might allow people an insight into the nature of the relationship between some Ukrainians and some Russians.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think it was genocide.

I agree. I don't think it fits any reasonable definition of term. If it had been something done to Ukrainians only, then the label might work, but as it was, it was at best "murder by bureaucracy" of elements of the Soviet Union's peoples. Managerialist callousness didn't and doesn't just manifest in capitalist economies. there will always be beancounters who think about the beans as beans, not as people.

 

[DairyQueen]

What good does it do? It puts a fact on the table. Something that might allow people an insight into the nature of the relationship between some Ukrainians and some Russians.

What facts are you referring to exactly? What insight does it add beyond the fact that 'some Ukrainians' and 'some Russians' are shooting each other right now?

 

[Casually Red]

So, no imperialist behaviour by Russia since the Soviet Union ended? I'm sure Chechens and others would disagree, as would the Central Asian republics that found the Russians trying to muscle in on their diplomatic and economic relations with China over the last 15 years.

theres a few thousand militiamen,2000 at most , against 15000 with tanks and artillery, heli gunships. Taking their stand against the USA, IMF and a fascist militia at the orders of a right wing putsch . If they were actually russian troops nobody would even breath in their direction .

The only convolution that ends with any leftist backing that type of openly fascist vermin is purely ethnic..you hate russians more than anything else on gods earth. Theres a couple of other fucking jokes on here so you arent alone.. Youve made clear were you stand so you can take yourself right off to fuck you joke
These are the arseholes that went into convolutions over a fucking quenelle...aa footballer scratching his fucking elbow. Neo nazi militias in europe and its good on them, cheering them on


fucking scum, running dogs