seventh bullet
sovietwave
You were the one who mentioned 'long' and 'tedious.' I was merely trying to open discussion, which doesn't necessarily have to take that form and go in that direction.
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Why do you think because I'm against the fascists that I'm automatically for Putin? And more to the point why do you think the people who live in eastern Ukraine shouldn't have the right to self determination? Ukraine is a massive country and just because the new government might be popular in west Ukraine doesn't mean it will be popular in the east of the country, no one voted the new government in for a start. In the east the people, quite rightly, dont want to be under a fascist yoke so why would you deny them that right? Does your hatred of the people of eastern Ukraine supersede your hatred of fascism? Why can't the people of Donbass be allowed to decide on whether they want to stay with Kiev or not?
There are clear bad guys in this - its not as complicated as you make out - they're the fascist groups, that now have ministerial power without a clear mandate from the whole of the country and the US/EU forces that helped them into power. The people who dont want to be a part of a new fascist state in the east are not the bad guys.
SpineyNorman
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Are you embarrassed by this post? You should be.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Yeah, obviously, what other possible logic could I have?
Get a grip.
Answer the question - why shouldn't the people of eastern Ukraine have the right to self determination after the change in government they had no part of got into power?
Since fucking when do you speak on behalf of the entire Eastern Ukrainian people and have the authority to make political pronouncements on their collective behalf?
They have every right to reject the government in Kiev, I'd do the same in their position, but I don't think that the armed Pro-Russian seperatists speak for the majority of Eastern Ukrainians even if the majority of those people refuse to consent to the Kiev government (for good reason) doesn't mean they are in necessarily favour of the Russian annexation and occupation of where they live, which is where this could well be heading. And in that situation the self-determination of the Eastern Ukrainian people will not matter at all compared to the geopolitical interests of the Russian state.
SpineyNorman
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As far as I can see nobody's really giving them that option. A bunch of blokes in balaclavas does not a popular national liberation movement make.
Somewhere Casually Red has put on his balaclava and added your name to a list.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
A comment straight out of bullshit western media. They've said all along they want autonomy from Kiev, not necessarily a joining with Russia. Although pragmatically speaking if they get attacked by massive superior fire power from the Ukraine military, then I expect they would be happy for Russia to save their arses. But it doesn't have to come to that - a partition of the country would be a better option.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Bollocks! They've said they want a referendum in their region - Kiev has denied them that. Why not let them and let the result stand?
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Throw in the towel.
Who's this "they/them" of which you speak? The entire Eastern Ukranian people, whom all share the exact same political worldview, all support a course of action which would see their homeland annexed by a foreign imperialist state, and who have chosen you to be their oracle? How come it's you who seem to be able to make grandiose statements on their behalf?
You don't speak for "them" and the polling data we have on Eastern Ukraine (limited though it is) suggests that the things your are claiming on behalf of "them" aren't what "they" themselves actually believe:
6. Only 11.7% support the recent capture of administrative buildings in their region by pro-Russian groups (a minority even in Donetsk - 18.1% - and Luhansk - 24.2%). With the exception of Luhansk, across all surveyed regions these types of actions are seen as not, and never, justifiable by a majority of respondents.
8. Only 11.7% support the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine, 74.3% doesn’t. This opinion is supported across all surveyed regions. 74.5% say Ukraine and Russia should be two independent states with open borders and without visas, 15.9% in Luhansk and 12.4% in Donetsk believe the two countries should unite into one state vs 8.4% overall.
None of the surveyed regions wants to secede from Ukraine to join Russia. In Donetsk 27.5% (vs 52.2%), and 30.3% (vs 51.9%) in Luhansk, are for for joining Russia. 64.6% and 60.8% in the two regions respectively, say they would not join the pro-Russian rallies in their region, 25% would.
23.1% believe the rights of the Russian-speaking population are being violated, 71.5% doesn’t. 39.9% vs 57.2% and 29.5% vs 60.8% in Donetsk and Luhansk respectively. For context, according to the 2001 census the native Russian—speaking population is 75% in Donetsk and 69% in Luhansk.
SpineyNorman
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Yes, what could possibly go wrong?
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Bet you a pound to a penny the people in Eastern Ukraine, if they were allowed a referendum, would vote not to be run by Kiev.
SpineyNorman
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Really?
What's your point?
SpineyNorman
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sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Well, as far as the people in Eastern Ukraine are concerned - not much. For anti fascists in western Ukraine it might be more problematic.
When people come out with statements like that I just put my head in my hands and lose faith in everything.
A partition of Ukraine would be very messy and probably end up with a war between Russia and the EU/West.
Now personally speaking I quite like being alive but there's people here who've clearly become tired of life. Wish they didn't drag the rest of the world down with them.
SpineyNorman
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You're a complete and utter historical illiterate aren't you?
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
I thought that would be obvious - you said a bunch of blokes in balaclavas do not make a popular liberation movement. I was pointing out that this was bollocks.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
You tell me what are the options for eastern Ukrainians who dont want to be run by fascists. There's the option of fucking off the Kiev fascists by force but thats much more problematic than a partition.
SpineyNorman
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Yes, some popular national liberation movements have involved blokes in balaclavas. It therefore logically follows that if there are blokes in balaclavas there must be a popular national liberation movement.
Faultless logic you've got there.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
But you were talking utter shite though.
SpineyNorman
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I think it's a little bit more complex than Kiev fascists and pro-Russian antifascists. But then again I don't base my opinions on the symbols carried by a few members of a crowd so what would I know?
SpineyNorman
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No I wasn't. My point was precisely that just because there's blokes in balaclavas that doesn't mean it's a popular national liberation movement.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
So one side carries fascist symbols and the other carries anti fascist symbols and you cant suss out which is which? Rightio
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Lets leave that to the referendum shall we?
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
We all know the real reason why Kiev wont let a referendum happen in eastern Ukraine - all of Ukraine's industry, both heavy (coal, steel production ) and high tech industries are based in east Ukraine. If Kiev loses these then the bit that is left becomes a basket case, the west knows this too. But no one asked the residents of east Ukraine about the new change of government so why should they have have a government they didnt want or vote for to control their lives?
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