Ukraine

[sunny jim]

And for you this constitutes a fascist state? Nothing more to it than that?

Was Italy a fascist state when the National Alliance held ministries?

Yes, control of the army and cops does mean you have control over the country. Who is supposed to stop you when the armed forces and cops are in your hands?

 

[Delroy Booth]

I ask again - where's your citations for your figures? Who did the poll post regime change? Either put up some facts or shut up.

Third time I've linked this to you. Every one of the statistics I quoted is from there.

http://albertonardelli.tumblr.com/post/83217046292/dissecting-public-opinion-in-east-ukraine

 

[SpineyNorman]

If there's to be partition in Ukraine shouldn't Eastern and Western Ukrainians be consulted? I imagine most, or at least some, of the pro-Putin posters will share my opinion that Irish partition is illegitimate because the whole of the country never got to vote on it. Not sure why Ukraine should be any different.

On that question - pro or anti-partition rather than pro/anti Kiev/Russia - I will take sides. I'm definitely opposed to the idea of the partition of Ukraine. That shit never ends well.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yes, control of the army and cops does mean you have control over the country. Who is supposed to stop you when the armed forces and cops are in your hands?

But they don't have control over the army and the cops, as was demonstrated when the army refused to follow their orders when they wanted to attack the separatists. Or is it the case that this didn't happen now it doesn't suit your argument to say it did?

 

[sunny jim]

Should we find a list of western european states that have had far-right neo-fascists in government that Sunny Jim "failed to condemn" just to expose what a mealy mouthed hypocrite the man is?

Let's see Norway, Denmark and Italy have all had fascists/neo-fascists as minor parties involved in coalition government over the last few years and I didn't see Sunny Jim starting threads on those places and demanding Russian invasions there. That's off the top of my head - there been any more recent fash-in-government type affairs? Austria? The Netherlands?

Get to fuck. None of those countries have ministerial positions that fascists have control of

 

[Delroy Booth]

If there's to be partition in Ukraine shouldn't Eastern and Western Ukrainians be consulted? I imagine most, or at least some, of the pro-Putin posters will share my opinion that Irish partition is illegitimate because the whole of the country never got to vote on it. Not sure why Ukraine should be any different.

On that question - pro or anti-partition rather than pro/anti Kiev/Russia - I will take sides. I'm definitely opposed to the idea of the partition of Ukraine. That shit never ends well.

Any bit of foreign policy which carries with it a very small but real chance of global nuclear war doesn't get my support.

Unless it's the workers bomb then it's different. I'm only in favour of bourgeois states nuclear disarmament

 

[sunny jim]

But they don't have control over the army and the cops, as was demonstrated when the army refused to follow their orders when they wanted to attack the separatists. Or is it the case that this didn't happen now it doesn't suit your argument to say it did?

They seem to have enough of the army to attack the people in eastern Ukraine.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Get to fuck. None of those countries have ministerial positions that fascists have control of

So the National Alliance never controlled ministeries?

 

[sunny jim]

So the National Alliance never controlled ministeries?

From a coup, no.

 

[SpineyNorman]

From a coup, no.

You keep shifting the goalposts

Will it still be fascist if the elections next month return a government with some of them heading ministeries? When was the last time a fascist state held elections by the way?

 

[sunny jim]

Are you seriously comparing the Right Sector gaining power to what happened in Italy in the 90's?

 

[SpineyNorman]

They seem to have enough of the army to attack the people in eastern Ukraine.

How much of the army do they need to control to make it a fascist state then?

Where's the corporatism by the way? Or the full executive power in the hands of a charismatic leader?

 

[sunny jim]

You keep shifting the goalposts

Will it still be fascist if the elections next month return a government with some of them heading ministeries? When was the last time a fascist state held elections by the way?

If the Right Sector stopped beating up anybody who's against them then the chance of free and fair elections might be greater.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Are you seriously comparing the Right Sector gaining power to what happened in Italy in the 90's?

No. I'm saying the right sector haven't 'gained power'.

 

[frogwoman]

Is the president of Ukraine going on about a palingenetic rebirth?

 

[SpineyNorman]

If the Right Sector stopped beating up anybody who's against them then the chance of free and fair elections might be greater.

On what are you basing this claim?

When was the last time a fascist state held elections, whether free and fair or expensive and unfair?

 

[frogwoman]

No. I'm saying the right sector haven't 'gained power'.

Svoboda have some governmental posts, right sector aren't in power at all

 

[sunny jim]

How much of the army do they need to control to make it a fascist state then?

Where's the corporatism by the way? Or the full executive power in the hands of a charismatic leader?

Sorry, are you denying that fascists have control - through control of the armed forces and cops - of Kiev and its surrounds? Really? Seriously?

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry, are you denying that fascists have control - through control of the armed forces and cops - of Kiev and its surrounds? Really? Seriously?

I have nothing but contempt for the Kiev regime but don't you think this is over egging the pudding a bit?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Sorry, are you denying that fascists have control - through control of the armed forces and cops - of Kiev and its surrounds? Really? Seriously?

I'm not denying that there are fascists - or at the very least far right ultranationalists - involved in the government and some of them hold ministerial positions.

That's not the same thing as a state turning fascist though.

These distinctions matter, regardless of how much you want to play them down so you can get behind your 'side' like it's a fucking football match or something.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Are you seriously comparing the Right Sector gaining power to what happened in Italy in the 90's?

Name one minister in the current Kiev government affiliated to Right Sector.

And when are you going to respond to that long post I made with the polling data? Y'know the one that contradicts the unsubstantiated statements you keep coming out with about how everyone in Eastern Ukraine are joining Workers Defence Squads to fight the Kiev Fascists for Putin! The one you asked for citations for twice then when I gave them you just ignored it?

From a coup, no.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I have nothing but contempt for the Kiev regime but don't you think this is over egging the pudding a bit?

lies! If you say it's not a fascist state that means you're a pro-Kiev fascist apologist.

 

[Delroy Booth]

From a coup, no.

The sheer brass neck of this deserves admiration

 

[sunny jim]

Svoboda have some governmental posts, right sector aren't in power at all

Right sector are in power, Dmytro Yarosh is the deputy head of national security and national defence committee - and leader of the Right Sector.

 

[frogwoman]

I have nothing but contempt for the Kiev regime but don't you think this is over egging the pudding a bit?

Not being funny sunny jim but when it comes to fascism/antifascism you have to be really careful not to exaggerate shit and to get all the facts right.

There are fash in Ukraine and supporters of the government and this has to some extent been a huge victory for them. However you should ask why the fash got such support, it's incredibly important to be accurate and not make hysterical claims.

You should also remember that there are fash on both sides and that while the Donetsk protesters definitely aren't all fash exactly the same applied to the protesters on the maidan who weren't all fash either.

It is very important not to label all anger against a regime as far right - it may end up a self fulfilling prophecy if you do because all you will do is piss people off,many of whose families have been affected by the 'anti fascist' Russian government

And the examples of place like say Israel shows that 'antifascism' in the name of patriotism is often anything but

 

[sunny jim]

The whole crisis is really fucking simple - there was a CIA backed coup in Ukraine, which used fascists and nazis as their shock troops, and which led to those fascists and nazis being in positions of power. The respected journalist John Pilger agrees.......

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/17/nato-ukraine-dr-strangelove-china-us

 

[DotCommunist]

this good thread is in danger of going down the toilet if the 'he is this' and 'her position is that' continues- and that would be crap cos it has been overall informative.

I'm not trying to be mr thread police or anything...

 

[frogwoman]

An antifascist, yesterday

 

[sunny jim]

You should also remember that there are fash on both sides and that while the Donetsk protesters definitely aren't all fash exactly the same applied to the protesters on the maidan who weren't all fash either./QUOTE]

The non fash on the side of the Maiden protests helped the fash into power, useful idiots I think they're called. And if you claim there's fascists on the side of the Donetsk protesters please provide some evidence.

 

[Delroy Booth]

and which led to those fascists and nazis being in positions of power.

Note how he's changed the goalposts yet again, from the Right Sector beign in power in Kiev to all of a sudden merely being in positions of power.

Nice move.

Now you're still refusing to acknolwedge that poll I linked up for you 3 times which shows your previous statements that you were making on behalf of the Eastern Ukrainians were total bullshit at odds with what people there actually think.