Ukraine

[SpineyNorman]

this good thread is in danger of going down the toilet if the 'he is this' and 'her position is that' continues- and that would be crap cos it has been overall informative.

I'm not trying to be mr thread police or anything...

Yeah you're right - I won't assist in turning this thread to shit any longer.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Yeah you're right - I won't assist in turning this thread to shit any longer.

Which is exactly how we end up with camoflague Casually Red and these other creeps spamming their ridiculous partisan Putin love-fest shit all over the place, all the decent people end up so exasperated by the bullshit that they throw their hands up and walk away.

I don't blame you at all, not one bit, but it's a sad state of affairs that one of the best places where people could check up on the Ukrainian situation and get well informed and coherent analysis of Ukraine ends up being a trainwreck. Every time anyone wants to have a conversation on this forum there's a certain point at which it becomes impossible because of the sheer fucking stupidity of a few of the posters batting for their team.

This thread's dead and gone and whatever usefulness it had at one point has long since disappeared so fuck it there's really nothing to lose at this point. A few months ago I would've done the same. But the consequence of all that is that now we have uncontested Pro-Russian propaganda being spammed onto the thread day after day by a small gang of idiots and fantasists.

 

[classicdish]

Ministerial positions in the defence department and the law and order department mean you have control over the army and cops and defacto control over the country.

Minister of defence = Mykhailo Koval
Minister of Internal Affairs = Arsen Avakov
Neither of these is a member of "neo-nazi" party or similar.

Also what "neo-nazi" actions have the Yatsenyuk government taken exactly?

 

[newbie]

If there's to be partition in Ukraine shouldn't Eastern and Western Ukrainians be consulted? I imagine most, or at least some, of the pro-Putin posters will share my opinion that Irish partition is illegitimate because the whole of the country never got to vote on it. Not sure why Ukraine should be any different.

On that question - pro or anti-partition rather than pro/anti Kiev/Russia - I will take sides. I'm definitely opposed to the idea of the partition of Ukraine. That shit never ends well.

I don't get a vote on whether my country splits; the people of the northern part of Sudan didn't get a vote on their partition. Why should Ukraine be any different?

 

[sunny jim]

If there's to be partition in Ukraine shouldn't Eastern and Western Ukrainians be consulted? I imagine most, or at least some, of the pro-Putin posters will share my opinion that Irish partition is illegitimate because the whole of the country never got to vote on it. Not sure why Ukraine should be any different.

On that question - pro or anti-partition rather than pro/anti Kiev/Russia - I will take sides. I'm definitely opposed to the idea of the partition of Ukraine. That shit never ends well.

Compared to being run by fascists and neo nazis I'd have thought the idea of partition was much better idea.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I don't get a vote on whether my country splits; the people of the northern part of Sudan didn't get a vote on their partition. Why should Ukraine be any different?

Eh? I don't know which country yours is so can't comment on that and don't know enough about Sudan either. But as a general rule if a country is to be partitioned (and I don't think Ukraine should) it should, IMO, only happen if it's the will of the whole country. I could probably come up with scenarios in which that wouldn't be appropriate but this isn't one of them.

Just because there have been undemocratic partitions in the past that doesn't mean we should encourage them in the future.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Compared to being run by fascists and neo nazis I'd have thought the idea of partition was much better idea.

What happens to ethnic Russians in the west? What happens to ethnic Ukrainians in the east? What happens to other ethnic minorities on both sides? Partition tends to divide societies along ethnic and sectarian lines. It's a recipe for utter fucking disaster. Not just in Ukraine but just about anywhere. It would serve to strengthen far right and chauvinist elements on both sides.

That's the last reply you'll get from me until you can manage to stop posting in sloganese.

 

[frogwoman]

The way to stop nationalism isn't to Balkanize the country ffs

 

[Belushi]

I presume newbie is talking about the UK.

 

[8ball]

The way to stop nationalism isn't to Balkanize the country ffs

Maybe nationalism is somehow inversely proportional to the number of nations...

 

[SpineyNorman]

The way to stop nationalism isn't to Balkanize the country ffs

But it worked so well in Yugoslavia

 

[DotCommunist]

But it worked so well in Yugoslavia

India and Northern Ireland- veritable lands of peace.

 

[DotCommunist]

Lets just seperate bits off for a bit and see how it goes. I'm sure state led top down solutions like partioning will not ever cause any issues to anyone

 

[frogwoman]

Lets just seperate bits off for a bit and see how it goes. I'm sure state led top down solutions like partioning will not ever cause any issues to anyone

Using a map and a ruler

 

[SpineyNorman]

Worked in Africa.

 

[Belushi]

Hmmm, surely if we follow this logic Putin would already be in charge of the Ukraine as the USSR would never have been dismantled?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Worked in Africa.

and Korea

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'd be up for Yorkshire seceding from the UK though tbh

 

[DotCommunist]

Also: its amazing how Israel has co existed with its nieghbours in complete harmony since ww2 victors drew lines on maps

 

[Delroy Booth]

I'd be up for Yorkshire seceding from the UK though tbh

The People's Democratic Republic of the m62 Corridor is going to happen, I've written a constitution and everything comrade.

Capital in Yorkshire, obviously.

 

[newbie]

Eh? I don't know which country yours is so can't comment on that and don't know enough about Sudan either. But as a general rule if a country is to be partitioned (and I don't think Ukraine should) it should, IMO, only happen if it's the will of the whole country. I could probably come up with scenarios in which that wouldn't be appropriate but this isn't one of them.

Just because there have been undemocratic partitions in the past that doesn't mean we should encourage them in the future.

erm, I'm a Brit. Did you miss news of the Scotland referendum?

 

[DotCommunist]

The People's Democratic Republic of the m62 Corridor is going to happen, I've written a constitution and everything comrade.

Capital in Yorkshire, obviously.

I'd be up for Yorkshire seceding from the UK though tbh

I'm well up for uk decentralising of power though, regional councils etc.

we, the people of Anglia have historic claim. We were a kingdom long before the Union was a gleam in the lawmakers eye.

But the seccesions and so on going on in europe are non violent, elective, pressured stuff. Even etta have laid down arms.

Thats not going to work in places where the situation is so volatile, like it didn't in NI and didn't in India.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Hmmm, surely if we follow this logic Putin would already be in charge of the Ukraine as the USSR would never have been dismantled?

That's not quite the same though is it? There's never been an imperial relationship between east and west Ukraine. Ukraine was a nation before it was taken into the USSR and was given the status of a nation (despite being under Russian soviet control) even in that period. There's no such precedent for east/west Ukraine.

I guess, to make an analogy with something I at least am a lot more familiar with, Ukraine winning independence is like Ireland winning independce from the UK. A partition between east and west Ukraine - which is what sunny jim is talking about - is like the partition of Ireland. I don't think you can credibly claim those two things are the same or even similar.

I wish the USSR never had been dismantled though, then we could cheer on the workers state fighting the fascist hordes etc. Oh, hang on...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is one of those situations where I don't see a good answer.

The best answer would be a pluralist Ukraine in which a broad, inclusive Ukrainian identity embraces both its ethnic Ukrainian and ethnic Russian histories. There are voices in Ukraine calling for something like this, but they are being totally drowned out. Both Russia and the EU/US are joining in with the shouting that is drowning them out.

 

[goldenecitrone]

On a more positive note from RT, Obama confirms he has no plans to let Putin drown.

 

[SpineyNorman]

erm, I'm a Brit. Did you miss news of the Scotland referendum?

Not really a partition though is it? And done under completely different conditions, under a government that is, though it pains me to say it, legitimate at least in liberal terms. Doesn't really carry the same risks does it?

 

[Belushi]

That's not quite the same though is it? There's never been an imperial relationship between east and west Ukraine. Ukraine was a nation before it was taken into the USSR and was given the status of a nation

Not with its current borders though.

I'm not advocating partition btw, I just think the no partition ever! line just doesn't stand up to much scrutiny, especially in the context of Eastern Europe.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The People's Democratic Republic of the m62 Corridor is going to happen, I've written a constitution and everything comrade.

Capital in Sheffield, obviously.

fify

 

[SpineyNorman]

Not with its current borders though.

I'm not advocating partition btw, I just think the no partition ever! line just doesn't stand up to much scrutiny, especially in the context of Eastern Europe.

Under these conditions I think it does. (I did qualify it by saying I could probably come up with exceptional cases)

 

[Delroy Booth]

fify

I'll accept that on condition we have Andy Booth as head of state