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Anyway I'll take your word for it that you're not a Putin bum-licker and bid you good-day. And there is no higher honour than making Casually Wrong's ignore list so I'll take that as a positive.

Actually, Delroy, coming back to this particularly, the above is out of order. Do you care to back that up, with regard to my all my posts on this thread and elsewhere regarding Russian politics and the far right in that country?
 
We all know the real reason why Kiev wont let a referendum happen in eastern Ukraine - all of Ukraine's industry, both heavy (coal, steel production etc) and high tech industries are based in east Ukraine.

God almighty you don't think they know that?

Besides the importance of this borderline obsolete soviet-era industrial area is continually overstated. If anything subsidising the Ukrainian rust-belt is something I'm sure the Russians aren't all that keen on either, but states will spend and lose resources if they feel it is in their broader geopolitical interests to do so.

And going back to your earlier post, are you willing to accept that your statements on behalf of the people of Eastern Ukraine all unanimously supporting pro-russian seperatists has no basis in fact? And that you don't actually speak on behalf of the People of Eastern Ukraine? And that all those things you claimed on their behalf are contradicted by the polling data I linked up earlier?
 
You tell me what are the options for eastern Ukrainians who dont want to be run by fascists.
There's an election scheduled. What evidence is there that fascists parties have any real level of support across Ukraine? Svoboda got 10% of the vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections and a party like eg UNA-UNSO got 0.08% source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_elections#2012_parliamentary_elections

In the 2010 presidential election Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda) got only 1.43% of the vote. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_elections#2010_presidential_election
 
Actually, Delroy, coming back to this particularly, the above is out of order. Do you care to back that up, with regard to my all my posts on this thread and elsewhere regarding Russian politics and the far right in that country?

What's out of order? Fair enough I'll take it back - you are a Putin bum-licker, sorry for any offense I may have caused.
 
And going back to your earlier post, are you willing to accept that your statements on behalf of the people of Eastern Ukraine all unanimously supporting pro-russian seperatists has no basis in fact? And that you don't actually speak on behalf of the People of Eastern Ukraine? And that all those things you claimed on their behalf are contradiced by the polling data I linked up earlier?

No, I'm not until a referendum proves otherwise. Why are you against a referendum?
 
What's out of order? Fair enough I'll take it back - you are a Putin bum-licker, sorry for any offense I may have caused.

I was more concerned about being portrayed as a sympathiser with the far right rather than the schoolyard siutation, considering your earlier talk, which I most certainly am not.
 
There's an election scheduled. What evidence is there that fascists parties have any real level of support across Ukraine? Svoboda got 10% of the vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections and a party like eg UNA-UNSO got 0.08% source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_elections#2012_parliamentary_elections

In the 2010 presidential election Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda) got only 1.43% of the vote. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_elections#2010_presidential_election

There's an election but there are - and you know this - groups of the fascist Right Sector battering anybody who disagrees with them. This is not conducive to a free and fair election.
 
I said "a fact", not "facts". Do please try to not misrepresent me.

That there's a deep-rooted antipathy seated behind some of the conflict between the two states.
Too Russophobe for you?

I fail to see how your fact reveals any deep-seated antipathy behind some of the conflict between "two states" or why that is relevant to this conflict in Ukraine. Maybe you are trying to explain something now, but it is far from clear what.

Too Russophobe for you?

Considering you lamented the fact America has not intervened in Ukraine up until now shortly after coming out with this slogan, it does seem a little Russophobic for my tastes. But each to their own.
 
I was more concerned about being portrayed as a sympathiser with the far right rather than the schoolyard siutation, considering your earlier talk, which I most certainly am not.

No I don't think you're a far-right sympathiser.

Were you upset or offended by me saying you weren't a putin bum-licker? Because if so I'll take that back too.
 
No I don't think you're a far-right sympathiser.

Were you upset or offended by me saying you weren't a putin bum-licker? Because if so I'll take that back too.

It is your ignorance of fascism in that country and your silly earlier post based on that which gave me concern wrt to the far right rather than just the 'your mom' level of insult slinging.
 
It is your ignorance of fascism in that country and your silly earlier post based on that which gave me concern wrt to the far right rather than just the 'your mom' level of insult slinging.

I'm genuinely confused, I wasn't calling you a far-right sympathiser at any point and I don't think you are one.

I thought you were offended by me saying "you're not a putin-bum licker" as that was the bit you quoted, so I offered to take it back. What else would you have me do?

Quite frankly I'm already bored of this conversation and if you want to continue it send me a PM I'm not diverting the thread any more with this nonsense.
 
Then why do you think that any referendum would be free and fair either?

Disband the neo nazi Right Sector, leave the people who live there without fear of any armed incursion by Kiev and let international (the whole world, not just US satellite states) judge it as free and fair. Jimmy Carter would be good I think.
 
I'm genuinely confused, I wasn't calling you a far-right sympathiser at any point and I don't think you are one.

I thought you were offended by me saying "you're not a putin-bum licker" as that was the bit you quoted, so I offered to take it back. What else would you have me do?

Quite frankly I'm already bored of this conversation and if you want to continue it send me a PM I'm not diverting the thread any more with this nonsense.

The bumlicking thing was insincere sideways talk. I'll send a PM later.
 
Sunny jim you have consistently made sweeping statements were you claim various things on behalf of the people in Eastern Ukraine without explaining where your evidence is from or what position you personally are in to judge them. Here's a brief selection of the things you've said in the last few pages which show that you're totally out of touch with popular opinion in Eastern Ukraine and have spent your time here falsely claiming thing on their behalf.

A comment straight out of bullshit western media. They've said all along they want autonomy from Kiev, not necessarily a joining with Russia.

Citation needed. According to the polling data only 25% want a federally autonomous set up in Ukraine. I'm sure people do want more power to the regions but more regional power is something that when asked practically every nation earth people are in favour of. It doesn't require any kind of referendum, let alone armed occupation of government buildings, to achieve that within the constitution.

Although pragmatically speaking if they get attacked by massive superior fire power from the Ukraine military, then I expect they would be happy for Russia to save their arses.

Citation needed. only 11.7% expressed any support for Russian troops getting involved (an even lower number, 8%, said they wanted Russia to be involved in any way with the current Ukrainian crisis) and 74.3% of people in Eastern Ukraine are against the presense of Russian troops in the country.

But it doesn't have to come to that - a partition of the country would be a better option.

Perhaps for you, but the vast majority of Eastern Ukranians according the polls, including the proud anti-fascists with their banners singing the internationalé etc, are overwhelmingly in favour of Ukraine remaining a unitary state and not splitting up. The most popular position is simply more power for the regions, not even full federal autonomy and a referendum! Any referendum would exist purely to provide a flimsy justification for a Russian invasion, as it did in Crimea, which is why Russian media is pushing it hard despite the opposition of many in the region to this course of action.

Infact 54.1% of the people of Eastern Ukraine believe Russia is interfering illegally in Ukraine (32% don’t) and 40.7% (vs 35%) fear that Russia is planning to invade.

A partition of the country would therefore not only be against the wishes of the vast majority of Eastern Ukranians but would itself trigger a war. We in the UK and the rest of the western world are treaty-bound to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Now Crimea is a unique case in many ways, but if Russia were to start picking off chunks of Eastern Ukraine NATO would either a) have to use military force to repel them or b) watch NATO disintegrate as states lose faith in NATO's ability to protect them from Russia. I don't fancy a war personally.

I think people should reserve their enmity for these people rather than the people of eastern Ukraine who are fighting against them. Just a thought.

There's another example of you speaking on behalf of people you know nothing about, have no contact with and don't give a fuck about other than to live out your sad vicarious "anti-fascist" wet dreams through. Treating people just like pawns in chess, as that great philosopher John Osborne once said.

Are ALL the people of Eastern Ukraine fighting against them Sunny Jim? Including the 36.8% that believe "Ukraine is at war with Russia" or the 30.3% that think the President Turchynov is legitimate? Even in Donetsk and other strongly pro-Russian areas far more people accept the Kiev administration than defend the previous Yannokovich one, and in the Eastern regions far more people support the Kiev regime than support the idea of Russian involvement of any kind, (42.3% support the legitimacy of the Kiev parliament, compared to a pitiful 8.4% who support becoming part of Russia)
 
Tell you what Delroy, lets wait for a referendum before we start making predictions on what people think about the fascist take over of the Kiev government. Surely thats a better idea, isn't it?
 
What's out of order? Fair enough I'll take it back - you are a Putin bum-licker, sorry for any offense I may have caused.
think you've got completely the wrong end of the stick about seventh bullet and his views on Russia to be honest mate. his posting history on this stuff suggests to me that he's probably the best read poster on these boards when it comes to those topics.
 
hang on, when did Ukraine become a fascist state? did I miss something? I know there's a lot of far right cunts in and around the government but that's hardly the same thing is it?
 
hang on, when did Ukraine become a fascist state? did I miss something? I know there's a lot of far right cunts in and around the government but that's hardly the same thing is it?

Ministerial positions in the defence department and the law and order department mean you have control over the army and cops and defacto control over the country. Fascists are in ministerial positions of these departments. Work it out for yourself FFS.
 
think you've got completely the wrong end of the stick about seventh bullet and his views on Russia to be honest mate. his posting history on this stuff suggests to me that he's probably the best read poster on these boards when it comes to those topics.

As well he might be, I orginally said "you're not a Putin bum-licker" and then took offence at it. I've read his posts too I don't actually disagree with him on any of this and I can't be arsed working out exactly what i've said that has hurt is feelings so, and I equally can't be arsed having a long and pointless argument over "is Putin's Russia a fascist state" especially as in the short answer we'd both probably come to is "no"
 
Sunny jim you have consistently made sweeping statements were you claim various things on behalf of the people in Eastern Ukraine without explaining where your evidence is from or what position you personally are in to judge them. Here's a brief selection of the things you've said in the last few pages which show that you're totally out of touch with popular opinion in Eastern Ukraine and have spent your time here falsely claiming thing on their behalf.



Citation needed. According to the polling data only 25% want a federally autonomous set up in Ukraine. I'm sure people do want more power to the regions but more regional power is something that when asked practically every nation earth people are in favour of. It doesn't require any kind of referendum, let alone armed occupation of government buildings, to achieve that within the constitution.



Citation needed. only 11.7% expressed any support for Russian troops getting involved (an even lower number, 8%, said they wanted Russia to be involved in any way with the current Ukrainian crisis) and 74.3% of people in Eastern Ukraine are against the presense of Russian troops in the country.



Perhaps for you, but the vast majority of Eastern Ukranians according the polls, including the proud anti-fascists with their banners singing the internationalé etc, are overwhelmingly in favour of Ukraine remaining a unitary state and not splitting up. The most popular position is simply more power for the regions, not even full federal autonomy and a referendum! Any referendum would exist purely to provide a flimsy justification for a Russian invasion, as it did in Crimea, which is why Russian media is pushing it hard despite the opposition of many in the region to this course of action.

Infact 54.1% of the people of Eastern Ukraine believe Russia is interfering illegally in Ukraine (32% don’t) and 40.7% (vs 35%) fear that Russia is planning to invade.

A partition of the country would therefore not only be against the wishes of the vast majority of Eastern Ukranians but would itself trigger a war. We in the UK and the rest of the western world are treaty-bound to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Now Crimea is a unique case in many ways, but if Russia were to start picking off chunks of Eastern Ukraine NATO would either a) have to use military force to repel them or b) watch NATO disintegrate as states lose faith in NATO's ability to protect them from Russia. I don't fancy a war personally.



There's another example of you speaking on behalf of people you know nothing about, have no contact with and don't give a fuck about other than to live out your sad vicarious "anti-fascist" wet dreams through. Treating people just like pawns in chess, as that great philosopher John Osborne once said.

Are ALL the people of Eastern Ukraine fighting against them Sunny Jim? Including the 36.8% that believe "Ukraine is at war with Russia" or the 30.3% that think the President Turchynov is legitimate? Even in Donetsk and other strongly pro-Russian areas far more people accept the Kiev administration than defend the previous Yannokovich one, and in the Eastern regions far more people support the Kiev regime than support the idea of Russian involvement of any kind, (42.3% support the legitimacy of the Kiev parliament, compared to a pitiful 8.4% who support becoming part of Russia)


Citations are needed here. Who did these polls in the last few weeks then?
 
Are you actually against a referendum Delroy Booth or just scared it might not go the way you want?

I'm scared that any referendum will be a meaningless by the numbers fraud which will only be used as pretext and justification by Russia to annex half of Ukraine, and not something that will in any way represent the wishes of the people in that part of the world. Just as it was in Crimea infact.

There's also fuck all popular support for a referendum for seperatists in Eastern Ukraine, and there is no constitutional need to hold a referendum to give the eastern regions more power and Russian language it's own legal status.

Now at what point are you going to actually going to bother responding to the arguments and facts and concede that you're talking through your arse? I've answered your questions you not planning on answering any of mine? There was plenty in that longer post of mine you quoted that you missed.
 
Ministerial positions in the defence department and the law and order department mean you have control over the army and cops and defacto control over the country. Fascists are in ministerial positions of these departments. Work it out for yourself FFS.

And for you this constitutes a fascist state? Nothing more to it than that?

Was Italy a fascist state when the National Alliance held ministries?
 
I'm scared that any referendum will be a meaningless by the numbers fraud which will only be used as pretext and justification by Russia to annex half of Ukraine, and not something that will in any way represent the wishes of the people in that part of the world. Just as it was in Crimea infact.

There's also fuck all popular support for a referendum for seperatists in Eastern Ukraine, and there is no constitutional need to hold a referendum to give the eastern regions more power and Russian language it's own legal status.

Now at what point are you going to actually going to bother responding to the arguments and facts and concede that you're talking through your arse? I've answered your questions you not planning on answering any of mine? There was plenty in that longer post of mine you quoted that you missed.

I ask again - where's your citations for your figures? Who did the poll post regime change? Either put up some facts or shut up.
 
Was Italy a fascist state when the National Alliance held ministries?

Should we find a list of western european states that have had far-right neo-fascists in government that Sunny Jim "failed to condemn" just to expose what a mealy mouthed hypocrite the man is?

Let's see Norway, Denmark and Italy have all had fascists/neo-fascists as minor parties involved in coalition government over the last few years and I didn't see Sunny Jim starting threads on those places and demanding Russian invasions there. That's off the top of my head - there been any more recent fash-in-government type affairs? Austria? The Netherlands?
 
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