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Ukraine

sunny jim said:
This is the type of shite the Guardian have been posting on their website, making out these fascist thugs are protesting for democracy.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-rebel-fighters-maidan-video

The same video was posted on the Right Sector's FB page with fascists crowing about it
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pravyi-Sektor-English-International/235980666595205

So going by that, if you dont want your news to be neo nazi apologism, substituting the Guardian for RT might be a good idea.
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Congrats.

That is the most remarkable logical conclusion that I have yet seen on this website and I´ve been here more or less since 1998....
 
not so long back they were supplying photographs telling us that the eastern and crimean protestors were the same people at different events wearing disguises. And they werent even Ukrainians but Russians whod been paid to travel there and protest. The obvious implication being Eastern Ukrainians support their coup, support their vote being overturned by nazis and are actually looking forward to IMF and EU austerity programmes so any protests claiming to emanate from them are clearly fake.

The BBC is patently not a fascist organisation. However it patently is an organisation propagandising on behalf of a junta that comprises many fascists, and the fascist militias which take their orders . Thats why its doesnt carry stories highlighting the nazi credentials of the people they support. Because it doesnt want people to know about it.
Fascist collaborator would be a more apt description in such circumstances.
 
their proof essentially consists of a stocky heavily bearded guy allegedly in South Ossetia 6 years ago ...but could have been from absolutely anywhere...wearing a poorly sewn on Russian military patch who bears a passing resemblance to a stocky heavily bearded guy in Eastern Ukraine. Namely because both of them are stocky and heavily bearded...which isnt really that odd among ethnic Russians. To my eyes they definitely dont look like the same guy. The one in ossetias nose looks different to the one in east ukraine . And both bearded guys look quite over the hill and unfit to be serving in a special forces unit as an infantry unit . Id suspect military veterans in both cases.

And the junta have just stuck up a caption on their pic just claiming the group as a special forces unit. Without identifying a single one of them.

The BBC are satisfied that caption then permits them to write appears to be linked to a special forces unit, more than once.

heres another much larger pic of the bearded guy who was in the news last week. No way thats the same guy as the one allegedly in Ossetia. Its absolute bollocks, the nose is very different to the vodka ruined one in Ossetia. You can see peeking out from the front of his cap his hair was originally black, not ginger. He even looks a bit younger than he did 6 years ago.

And I suspect thats why its worth noting the junta havent released it themselves but given it to the US state department, who themselves pronounce it genuine . Always able to claim later that their Ukrainian partners may have made a genuine mistake.
And also worth noting even the BBC and CNN are pointedly not claiming the evidence is authentic in a definite disclaimer , because its laughably fake when one gets a larger pic to look at than the one on the news sites.

article-2603613-1D13DDCB00000578-217_964x680.jpg


And if one looks at the little green men in Crimea , who definitely were special forces, youll note the kit they were carrying was often a lot more specialised than these guys...silenced Val 9 sniper rifles and pp200 smgs as side arms.Kord heavy machine guns . These ones definitely arent carrying anything like that in any of the footage Ive seen. Basic AKs and the odd RPG. No fancy stuff, no expensive grips, slides or sights. Just basic militia gear. In provinces full of ex Ukrainian and Russian military, Berkut etc.
 
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"There are no Russian units, special services or instructors in the east of Ukraine," President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.
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That's pretty unequivocal, no wriggle room, no plausible deniability. It's a hostage to fortune, Kiev only needs to capture and identify one of them.

Most likely outsourced to a Russian equivalent of Blackwater or G4S.

e2a the possibility that the Russian state is not involved in east Ukraine both politically and militarily is vanishingly small.
 
newbie said:
That's pretty unequivocal, no wriggle room, no plausible deniability. It's a hostage to fortune, Kiev only needs to capture and identify one of them.

Most likely outsourced to a Russian equivalent of Blackwater or G4S.

e2a the possibility that the Russian state is not involved in east Ukraine both politically and militarily is vanishingly small.
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Not really, considering the amount of defections in the Ukrainian army there has been recently, the soldiers visible in east Ukraine are most likely from the Ukrainian army. The junta in Kiev recently asked the Berkut to come back - this could mean one of two things i) The junta is really forgiving or ii) The junta has no one in its military or police it can rely on and is scraping the barrel/clutching at straws.
 
Here's some thoughtful commentary on that optimistic Kagarlitsky piece i posted last week and on whether Russian society is 'leftist' - whether Kaggers and his like are trying to "paint ordinary conservatism red":

Friends of the Imaginary People

Maidan and Anti-Maidan, which have a similar social makeup, employ the same methods, and suffer from identical nationalist diseases, look like twin brothers who have been divided and turned against each other by feuding elite clans and the intellectuals who serve them. There is absolutely no reason to force the facts, cramming them into a preconceived scheme drawn up on the basis of completely different events that have occurred in another country.
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I'm also surprised that #1 fascist hunter managed to miss out on these fascists involved with or supportive of the 'Donetsk Republic':



Donetsk_republic-01.jpg



I think we can safely ignore anton's hyperbole on the crimea towards the end of the piece, though, given they've just imposed the russian anti-gay laws there and immediately banned the planned gay pride march planned for tmw, can we blame potentially vulnerable people for being a bit apprehensive?
 
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Theres also millions of Ukrainians living and working in Russia and always has been. Many of them have been in the Russian military . Many have also been in the Ukrainian military. Russia doesnt need to send its own trained men in to destabilise.Theres already many thousands of trained military men in there and seriously pissed off with whats happened in kiev . Half the Berkut are there if not more, driven from their homes mostly . Weve seen Ukrainian troops and police defect and take their armoured vehicles with them .
It was only a few months ago we had that phone call were Timoshenko was recorded talking about shooting these very people in the head, annihilating them with nuclear weapons. She could well be the Kiev president before long.The maidan itself is still surrounded by neo nazi militia, neo nazi leaders are openly calling on their people to take up arms and head east. Those type of sentiments from her and her fascist associates in a place with Ukraines history will pretty much guarantee people taking up arms in self defence. Russia doesnt have to do much or indeed anything to encourage these people to take control of their towns . Kievs doing a good enough job of that itself..
 
looks like the easties had a bit of a result with this capture...Irma Krat..the so called fury of the maidan . Nabbed in highly doubtful circumstances in Slavansk just hours after her right sector buddies shot up a checkpoint in the town killing 3.

http://rt.com/news/krat-maidan-slavyansk-ukraine-860/

A lot of the western media are treating her as a cause celebre, a poor female journalist simply grabbed going about her business. However as even this heavily biassed article admits shes linked to the neo nazi patriots of Ukraine, which is part of Right Sector. And shes already been named by a Russian journalist who was kidnapped and tortured by the maidan fash...fingernails pulled out among other things ...as one of his torturers. While he was having needles inserted under his nails she was the one repeatedly kicking him in the balls, according to him. And apparently she has pictures on her facebook page posing alongside chaps with neo nazi armbands.
Claims though she travelled to Slavansk merely in the role of a journalist and to give a voice to the poor voiceless there. Bless her. Just a coincidence it was in the immediate aftermath of a right sector killing spree in the town im sure.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...o-people-who-have-not-been-heard-9273495.html

absolute shocking line still being peddled in that article. A ccording to the journalist the right sector arent neo nazis as such, but simply regularly attacked as Nazis in this area.

and

Ukrainian troops, sent on an anti-terrorist mission to retake government buildings seized by protestors, have taken refuge at the airport after having their own armoured personnel carriers seized

must be obligatory or something.
 
Russian fash militias have murdered a Ukrainian politician, according to the BBC.

Oleksandr Turchynov said the politician, named as Vladimir Rybak, was found near rebel-held Sloviansk.
"The terrorists who effectively took the whole Donetsk region hostage have now gone too far," he said.
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Here's him being bundled off. CR/Camo missed this one again.



One of the city council deputies, Vladimir Rybak, who opposes the pro-Russia separatists and wants Ukraine to remain undivided, came back to work to take down the Donetsk People’s Republic flag and replace it with Ukraine’s.

Asked to address the gathering, he was jostled by the crowd, and then, according to his wife, Elena, and a video posted on a local news Web site, a man in camouflage and a black mask chased Rybak down the street. He was caught, hustled into a car and has not been heard from since. The crowd shouted, “Throw him in the trunk!”

“He was kidnapped,” said his wife. “I am very scared, because previously he was a policeman, and it would have taken a lot to force him into a vehicle.”

Asked who would have taken her husband, Elena Rybak said: “I don’t know. There’s a lot of Russians around. There are others. There are lots of people who would want to get rid of him.”
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DairyQueen said:
Sounds like Kiev are using that as a casus belli to take back the holy land...
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They don't need (or want) one. We get months of this is what 'the fash' are doing, we might as well have RT as watch this thread, and we get nothing from the fash-hunters. I'l tell you what we'll get later though - who would benefit from doing this? It can't be pro-russiaans, it would redound against them, so it must be americans and the ukranian fash.

edit: blackwater blackwater!!!!!!
 
Oh, yes already there is drivel being reposted on FB about CIA death squads from infowars - this was posted by a friend of mine. I politely pointed out that that is a full-on wingnut conspiracy site. He had nothing else to say on the matter but hasn't posted up anything else of a similar nature since.
 
butchersapron said:
They don't need (or want) one. We get months of this is what 'the fash' are doing, we might as well have RT as watch this thread, and we get nothing from the fash-hunters. I'l tell you what we'll get later though - who would benefit from doing this? It can't be pro-russiaans, it would redound against them, so it must be americans and the ukranian fash.

edit: blackwater blackwater!!!!!!
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It is hard to disentangle from all of this how prominent these groups are in the Donetsk movement (it is much easier for the Western side). I'll give you an example, my understanding is that Dugin is/was a relatively unimportant figure in Russian politics and that his movement is not some Putin youth wing.

The Berkut facebook page is strange (notice the date - end of January - it was actually still the part of the Ukrainian authorities at the time). But, it is very hard to tell what is mainstream, what is a few fringe groups, what is propaganda, and who is actually leading the East Ukrainian revolts (Berkut, Russian fash?, Russian soldiers, conservatives, Soviet romantics) and, therefore, what they want.

Edit: I do take the point though... that both sides have some pretty nasty elements
 
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newbie said:
That's pretty unequivocal, no wriggle room, no plausible deniability. It's a hostage to fortune, Kiev only needs to capture and identify one of them.

Most likely outsourced to a Russian equivalent of Blackwater or G4S.

e2a the possibility that the Russian state is not involved in east Ukraine both politically and militarily is vanishingly small.
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All he has to do is exactly the same as he did in Crimea. Run with the lie until the lie doesn't matter anymore or is no longer defensible and then admit that the Local Self Defence militias were to some significant degree actually Russian troops.
 
DairyQueen said:
It is hard to disentangle from all of this how prominent these groups are in the Donetsk movement (it is much easier for the Western side). I'll give you an example, my understanding is that Dugin is/was a relatively unimportant figure in Russian politics and that his movement is not some Putin youth wing.

The Berkut facebook page is strange (notice the date - end of January - it was actually still the part of the Ukrainian authorities at the time). But, it is very hard to tell what is mainstream, what is a few fringe groups, what is propaganda, and who is actually leading the East Ukrainian revolts (Berkut, Russian fash?, Russian soldiers, conservatives, Soviet romantics) and, therefore, what they want.

Edit: I do take the point though... that both sides have some pretty nasty elements
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there havent been any more than a handful of russian fascists seen anywhere near this, and theyre mostly kids by the looks of it. Their presence is far outweighed by anti fascist banners that are all over the place. Anyone trying to suggest an equivalence with scale of whats being going on in western ukraine, with fascist shrines and monuments in town squares all over the place, national honours being bestowed on nazi leaders, massed ranks of neo nazi militias and a handful of spotty twats with a banner is taking the piss and engaging in deliberate confusion mongering .

As regards the guy who was taken away and found killed it doesnt remotely require any fascists to be responsible for that . The guy walked into a beseiged town full of angry people on the day of a triple funeral were his side had just killed 3 people, and more before that, and tried to pull their flag down . That was asking for some serious trouble and unfortunately for him he found it. Something like that could easy happen were im from in times of tension and right wing politics would have zero to do with it.

On the subject of Putin and what Russia is up to. He never denied Russian troops were in Crimea. In fact he pointed out over 20,000 of them were entitled to be there. Now hes formally admitted the little green men were definitely Russian troops as well, something he never denied at the time, just never admitted.

In this case though hes absolutely denying these militias are Russian troops. And theres nothing bar a dodgy beard being held up as evidence.
 
Fuchs66 said:
All he has to do is exactly the same as he did in Crimea. Run with the lie until the lie doesn't matter anymore or is no longer defensible and then admit that the Local Self Defence militias were to some significant degree actually Russian troops.
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what lie ? He said there were 20,000 Russian troops in Crimea. He never denied it. He just never admitted what all of them were up to until last week. There were local self defence militias, he just never mentioned they were relying on Russian troops to keep the Ukrainian army bottled up in their Crimean bases until they were organised.

Now Putins admitted it .

It was a different situation there. It all happened in a few days. The Russian army was based right beside the Ukrainian forces. If Ukrainian forces had started moving against the Crimean people with Russian troops standing there thered have been open war.

These guys have had a lot more time to get organised though, months before they moved as opposed to just days in Crimea. They havent needed a Russian military to hold Ukrainian forces off. Many of them were the Ukrainian forces to begin with.
 
SpineyNorman said:
No they don't. The anti-junta forces are all progressive antifascists who want to set up soviets and workers co-ops and stuff. And the berlin wall was an antifascist rampart.
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whose said that ? There are definitely a lot of tankies among them. Theres also a lot of Ukrainians among them ex police, Berkut and army, Russian nationalists, Russian royalists and even the pitifully small local Russian supporting facsists. Its the local population. Miners, farmers, Factory workers with all sorts of views. Nobodys claiming anything like what your coming out with.

But are you seriously saying these people should just be ignored and wiped out , crushed ? That their terrorists ? What is it ?

Theyve no legitimate grounds to reject that shower who took power illegally with the wests backing and whose leaders openly talk of wiping Russians from Ukraine ? Whove brought zero progressive change for them and never will and appointed more oligarchs to rule over them ?

One thing these people all seem to have in common whether left , right or centre is they know the economic system about to be imposed on them will leave their already miserable existence infinitely worse. Thats what theyre resisting , a system that seeks to crush them even worse economically as well as culturally, socially and ethnically . With neo nazis performing the classic attack dog of international capitals role

Why would we leave? Who told us to leave?” said one of the leaders of the men, Alexander, a shop owner who declined to give his last name.
“Nobody in Geneva who signed this agreement gives a damn about us. They’re interested in gas deals, in coal, in drilling. They don’t care about us,” Alexander said. “We’re not just poor. We’re completely poor, and nobody cares what poor people think.”

As he talked, an old man stood patiently at his elbow. “What do you want, father?” Alexander asked. “Are you hungry?” When the elderly man nodded yes, Alexander said, “See?”

thats the people you and the self appointed doctrinaires of proper social unrest are sneering at, smearing as fascists and hoping to be crushed. But now theyre armed and standing up for themselves. They may not succeed in anything, they may succeed in something. But at least theyre standing up and fighting for themselves against a system that wants to crush them.

lenins statue is still standing in their towns so a quote is appropriate

To imagine that social revolution is conceivable without revolts by small nations in the colonies and in Europe, without revolutionary outbursts by a section of the petty bourgeoisie WITHOUT ALL ITS PREJUDICES , without a movement of the politically non-conscious proletarian and semi-proletarian masses against oppression by the landowners, the church, and the monarchy, against national oppression, etc.--to imagine all this is to REPUDIATE SOCIAL REVOLUTION.

So one army lines up in one place and says, "We are for socialism", and another, somewhere else and says, "We are for imperialism", and that will be a social revolution! Only those who hold such a ridiculously pedantic view would vilify ..... rebellion by calling it a "putsch".

17Filipov08.r.jpg
 
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yanks and the junta wheeling out the big stick again. Biden threatening Russia they have days not weeks to comply ...with what exactly Im not sure. As if theyre threatening the Isle of Man. The Russians are being threatened they have to somehow use their influence to make everyone in East Ukraine happy and unafraid of the kiev junta... accept it basically.In a matter of days. Fucking laughable.
The protestors are pointing out they werent invited to any talks and never signed anything.
And the junta threatening to send the tanks in again on the back of the White houses threats.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/us-russia-days-weeks-follow-accord-23414567
 
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