Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25

[Orang Utan]

Just click 'ignore thread', top right, it's that simple.

I can click unignore though. It would help if you didn’t respond, please.

 

[cupid_stunt]

FFS, just grow up,

 

[Orang Utan]

FFS, just grow up,

IME kids are better at avoiding things they know are damaging for them so I don’t think those words are warranted

 

[Orang Utan]

maybe ignoring / being banned from the entire sub-forum would be an idea

Probably

 

[deeyo]

I'll have you know that my being significantly overweight gives me a greater resistance to nerve agents.

don't worry, comrade; you're not alone. you're part of a international movement, with the potential to bring us eternal peace:

"Too Fat To Fight? Obesity Threatens Military Recruiting : Shots - Health News : NPR" NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

having a 'patriotic front' also proves that you live in a country that provides its citizens more than enough to eat, and - 'While standards prior to war do not prevent malnutrition during a conflict, they will influence the nutritional impact of the conflict.'
STUDY ON THE IMPACT OF ARMED CONFLICTS ON THE NUTRITIONAL SITUATION OF CHILDREN

remember the words of ceasar:

'Let me have men about me that are fat,
Sleek-headed men, and such as sleep o’ nights:
Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.'

 

[MrCurry]

Probably a Stinger. This is what they're good for (see also soviet helicopters in Afghanistan)

Maybe, I’m clueless on these things. Just wondered what could take out a helicopter in such a way. Seemed a bit slow moving to be a missile, but what do I know.

 

[two sheds]

Mind you they did find in the US during the Iraq War that the less people knew about Iraq - where it is, who lived there and why there was conflict - the more they knew about Scud missiles - their range, how fast they moved, how much explosives they used. That was mainly Fox News viewers though.

 

[Combustible]

I don't know if them being given verbal assurances was the case. It's something Chomsky has always said. That it was a gentleman's agreement... Which is a bit of odd thing to say or for a state to accept when dealing with security arrangements with a competing power. From that article I gathered it was more to do with NATO troops in Germany at that time and the 'not one inch to the east' was just in relation to Germany maybe?

The linked article simply asserts that James Baker's 'not one inch to the east' referred only to Germany, but this is far from clear, and it definitely looks like the verbal assurances from Baker (as opposed to the much more limited written agreement) were much broader, which the US rowed back on later. There's a much more balanced twitter thread here including links to both sides of the argument



John Major also wrote in his diaries that he assured the Soviet defence minister that NATO would not expand.

 

[Pickman's model]

John Major also wrote in his diaries that he assured the Soviet defence minister that NATO would not expand.

the master criminal always makes one fatal error and major's was publishing his diaries complete with the truth on the matter

 

[friedaweed]

You've forgotten you always take the opposite tack to me

Demonstrating that we really are living in strange times.

That pilot looks a bit tubby for some elite plane sorties, surely those cockpits don't have that much space?
?

That was my excuse for not joining the war too.

 

[frogwoman]

Shechemite you heard anything about this?

Russian forces have seized a psychiatric hospital with 670 people inside in the town of Borodyanka in Ukraine’s Kyiv region, the regional governor Oleksiy Kuleba has said.

Today we do not understand how to evacuate these people, how to help them,” Kuleba said. “They are running out of water and medicines,” Kuleba said. “These are people with certain special needs, they need constant help ... many of them have been bedridden for years.”

Borodyanka is around 60km from Kyiv.

 

[Gramsci]

Top Cat and R2d2 and co, far as I can see their position is basically that WAR Is BAD, it's not very nice and people should be against War. Also anyone saying anything apart from how War Is Bad is a bloodthirsty warmonger.
The Ukrainians could have stopped all this by just not resisting, the silly intransigent buggers, just let Putin do his thing and nobody needed to get hurt.
It's brilliant, it would work every time, it's failsafe, if someone invades your country all you need to do is roll over and let them get on with it, problem solved.

The inconvenient thing is that if you followed that line of thought, if these geniuses were in charge instead of the nasty imperialist warmongers, my grandparents wouldn't have been liberated from the concentration camp they were in they'd they'd have died there.
Shit john lenon song is shit.

From my reading the post TopCat was going on about was someone talking about sending a load of British tanks over to Ukraine. Post 6170.

On that I agreed with him.

You posted up contact for volunteering to go and fight without saying whether you supported this or not. I don't btw. I wouldnt go nor would I encourage anyone from this country to go.

As someone who is of the "and co" I'm still highly sceptical of any military involvement in Ukraine of this country or Nato which this country is in. That includes sending weapons.

And yes war is bad. I don't see the years of involvement with Afghanistan as good sign of how further involvement of Nato in this Ukraine conflict will improve matters. It was held up as example by Hilary Clinton as a success.

Im for individuals donating money to NGOs giving humanitarian assistance. Which is what Im going to do.

I'm for sanctions directed at Oligarchs close to Putin.

I object to it being implied that this is tantamount to being an "appeaser". I'm not sure what your saying in practise. That Nato troops should go in?

 

[Pickman's model]

That Nato troops should go in?

misery famously loves company, and nato troops going in would spread that across europe if not further afield.

as anyone who followed the opening stages of the iraqi insurgency will have noted, at many turns the americans had the opportunity to a) keep things as bad as they were, or b) make them ten times worse. throughout the years 2003-2007 and probably later, after i stopped following events assiduously, the americans invariably chose option b). here nato is making a different calculation, and while not improving matters at least not making them exponentially worse. i wonder how long that will last

 

[TopCat]

Top Cat and R2d2 and co, far as I can see their position is basically that WAR Is BAD, it's not very nice and people should be against War. Also anyone saying anything apart from how War Is Bad is a bloodthirsty warmonger.
The Ukrainians could have stopped all this by just not resisting, the silly intransigent buggers, just let Putin do his thing and nobody needed to get hurt.
It's brilliant, it would work every time, it's failsafe, if someone invades your country all you need to do is roll over and let them get on with it, problem solved.

The inconvenient thing is that if you followed that line of thought, if these geniuses were in charge instead of the nasty imperialist warmongers, my grandparents wouldn't have been liberated from the concentration camp they were in they'd they'd have died there.
Shit john lenon song is shit.

Try reading the posts again, with more care. Maybe just a bit at a time.

 

[Shechemite]

Shechemite you heard anything about this?

Russian forces have seized a psychiatric hospital with 670 people inside in the town of Borodyanka in Ukraine’s Kyiv region, the regional governor Oleksiy Kuleba has said.


Borodyanka is around 60km from Kyiv.

I hadn’t. You got a link?

 

[two sheds]

I'm for against sanctions directed at Oligarchs close to Putin.

?
agree with a lot of what you said though

 

[frogwoman]

I hadn’t. You got a link?

It's in the guardian live updates page. Let me look around

 

[cupid_stunt]

I hadn’t. You got a link?

It's just as quoted, from the Guardian, direct LINK

 

[Diamond]

From the various military folk who I now follow, there seems to have been a collective feeling that the fight is now probably lost for the Russian army. I have been surprised by the relatively abrupt move to a more categorical tone from these sources but, as you can see for yourself, some of them are calling it as a lost cause already:







It looks to be a mix of saying that (i) that Russian convoy is actually a disaster for them, (ii) the air force is incurring very high losses from having to drop dumb bombs from low altitude (shot down by stingers and such like), (iii) and general failures of morale and planning (estimating that this is now a 3-day operation entering its 8th day - predictions that they will soon be out of food, fuel and so on)

 

[Gramsci]

?
agree with a lot of what you said though

sorry. my bad typing. I meant I'm for sanctions directed at Olgarchs close to Putin

 

[teqniq]

Blimey:

SBU kills member of Ukrainian delegation at talks with Russia Kyreyev on suspicion of treason - parliamentarian Honcharenko

interfax.com

 

[Mr Moose]

The linked article simply asserts that James Baker's 'not one inch to the east' referred only to Germany, but this is far from clear, and it definitely looks like the verbal assurances from Baker (as opposed to the much more limited written agreement) were much broader, which the US rowed back on later. There's a much more balanced twitter thread here including links to both sides of the argument



John Major also wrote in his diaries that he assured the Soviet defence minister that NATO would not expand.

Interesting. There must also be sell by date for the agreements the most powerful nations presume to make about other nations.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

From my reading the post TopCat was going on about was someone talking about sending a load of British tanks over to Ukraine. Post 6170.

On that I agreed with him.

You posted up contact for volunteering to go and fight without saying whether you supported this or not. I don't btw. I wouldnt go nor would I encourage anyone from this country to go.

As someone who is of the "and co" I'm still highly sceptical of any military involvement in Ukraine of this country or Nato which this country is in. That includes sending weapons.

And yes war is bad. I don't see the years of involvement with Afghanistan as good sign of how further involvement of Nato in this Ukraine conflict will improve matters. It was held up as example by Hilary Clinton as a success.

Im for individuals donating money to NGOs giving humanitarian assistance. Which is what Im going to do.

I'm for sanctions directed at Oligarchs close to Putin.

I object to it being implied that this is tantamount to being an "appeaser". I'm not sure what your saying in practise. That Nato troops should go in?

The best hope I see right now is implosion from within: disillusionment and rebellion spreading within the Russian and Belarussian forces (hope even half the reports come in on that are true), combined with growing unrest at home, leading to a rupture in the leadership. Aside from anything else, NATO getting involved right now might reverse those processes. Seems to me that the Russian military may have fast-forwarded to the end of a long, pointless conflict wrt motivation and morale.

I may of course be totally wrong.

 

[bimble]

From my reading the post TopCat was going on about was someone talking about sending a load of British tanks over to Ukraine. Post 6170.

On that I agreed with him.

You posted up contact for volunteering to go and fight without saying whether you supported this or not. I don't btw. I wouldnt go nor would I encourage anyone from this country to go.

As someone who is of the "and co" I'm still highly sceptical of any military involvement in Ukraine of this country or Nato which this country is in. That includes sending weapons.

And yes war is bad. I don't see the years of involvement with Afghanistan as good sign of how further involvement of Nato in this Ukraine conflict will improve matters. It was held up as example by Hilary Clinton as a success.

Im for individuals donating money to NGOs giving humanitarian assistance. Which is what Im going to do.

I'm for sanctions directed at Oligarchs close to Putin.

I object to it being implied that this is tantamount to being an "appeaser". I'm not sure what your saying in practise. That Nato troops should go in?

It's totally understandable that lots of people living in places like the UK have an idea that 'Western' intervention is always imperialism & is always a Bad Thing. I do feel like this is a moment where it might be possible for some of those really comfortable ways of thinking to be shaken up. I dont think going on about iraq is really relevant.

No, i'm not saying nato troops should go in.
And i have 3 or 4 times already clarified that i don't think anyone should volunteer to join the fight either. Here i'll say it again thats 5 now.

You think the West shouldn't have sent any weapons into Ukraine, its their problem, they got invaded what a shame basically.
Its ok to disagree on this without calling each other warmongers and appeasers.

 

[Shechemite]

It's just as quoted, from the Guardian, direct LINK

Ta

 

[Aladdin]

That pilot looks a bit tubby for some elite plane sorties, surely those cockpits don't have that much space?
?

I'd imagine the ejection process might be difficult...

 

[Ax^]

WTF is the isreali president doing in Russia ffs

 

[strung out]

From my reading the post TopCat was going on about was someone talking about sending a load of British tanks over to Ukraine. Post 6170.

On that I agreed with him.

You posted up contact for volunteering to go and fight without saying whether you supported this or not. I don't btw. I wouldnt go nor would I encourage anyone from this country to go.

As someone who is of the "and co" I'm still highly sceptical of any military involvement in Ukraine of this country or Nato which this country is in. That includes sending weapons.

And yes war is bad. I don't see the years of involvement with Afghanistan as good sign of how further involvement of Nato in this Ukraine conflict will improve matters. It was held up as example by Hilary Clinton as a success.

Im for individuals donating money to NGOs giving humanitarian assistance. Which is what Im going to do.

I'm for sanctions directed at Oligarchs close to Putin.

I object to it being implied that this is tantamount to being an "appeaser". I'm not sure what your saying in practise. That Nato troops should go in?

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with adopting an anti war position, or as close to one as possible given the circumstances.

You say though that you're sceptical of NATO involvement even to the extent of sending weapons. The fact is though that without the intelligence, training and weaponry support provided by the west, you're effectively condemning Ukraine and its people to rule by an oppressive dictatorship, the stripping of its resources by a country that gives zero shits about the human and environmental cost, and the death of anyone connected to maintaining a liberal democracy in the country.

Those are the consequences of not providing support, and those are the consequences bimble talks about when comparing it to the liberation of her ancestors in WWII.

Fwiw, I wouldn't send NATO troops in, and I don't think you'd find many people on here advocating for that, but the cost of not doing anything and waiting for ineffective sanctions to bite over months and years while the Ukrainian people suffer is high, and you need to own that if it is your position.

 

[Ax^]

I'm curious is he giving legatamacy to Russia that the ukraine is full of Nazis

when it has a jewish PM and Russian is as white nationalist as can be

WTF

 

[frogwoman]

WTF is the isreali president doing in Russia ffs

Putin and Netanyahu were pretty close tbh. A lot of Russians in Israel and Israel is a very popular holiday destination in Russia. Some elites in Israel been turning to Russia increasingly due to criticism of its policies in the USA and within the Jewish diaspora.