Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[weepiper]

Getting pretty pissed off with hearing UKIP described as 'the fourth party' when they haven't even got a single MP. DUP have 8 MPs. SNP have 6. Sinn Fein have 5. If it doesn't apply to the south of England it doesn't count, obviously.

 

[butchersapron]

I guess; but on retrospectively looking for 'racist councillor' I find loads of stories I'd never seen. If such a collation exists, it'd have been better if they'd just unfurled it in a single shot of 'X% candidates saying unpleasant things'.

Have a look for UKIP candidate, or member (or fruitcake) rather than councilor. Seriously, the drip drip kept it going for weeks on end rather than a one-shot thing potentially dissappearing rather quickly.

 

[J Ed]

I guess; but on retrospectively looking for 'racist councillor' I find loads of stories I'd never seen. If such a collation exists, it'd have been better if they'd just unfurled it in a single shot of 'X% candidates saying unpleasant things'.

Nah, a drip-drip release of info lets you build a narrative which is more useful than a single expose.

 

[mauvais]

Nah, a drip-drip release of info lets you build a narrative which is more useful than a single expose.

I think it's failed. I could be wrong - maybe it significantly deterred would-be UKIP voters, but it seems to me to have had diminishing returns over time on the basis of it being small volumes of more of the same.

 

[brogdale]

Getting pretty pissed off with hearing UKIP described as 'the fourth party' when they haven't even got a single MP. DUP have 8 MPs. SNP have 6. Sinn Fein have 5. If it doesn't apply to the south of England it doesn't count, obviously.

True enough, but I think we'd all be pretty surprised if any of those you mention gained the largest % share of the popular vote in a UK-wide election, as UKIP will do tomorrow.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's failed. I could be wrong - maybe it significantly deterred would-be UKIP voters, but it seems to me to have had diminishing returns over time on the basis of it being small volumes of more of the same.

Farage's standard response has been 'I don't know the man'. He appears not to know any UKIP members at all. Be harder for him to say that faced with a whole list of names.

 

[common.sense]

Actually, I thought winning 338 extra council seats and 6 extra councils was a resounding success for Labour.

Well you are wrong.

They needed to win 500-600 seats to claim a resounding success.

Worst, they lost seats to UKIP, which they seemed to have totally failed to predict, despite UKIP clearly going after Labour votes, they must be crapping themselves.

 

[common.sense]

But my general point is that the MSM are fixated on an anti Labour perspective which has hardened because now there are 2 neoliberal zealot and socially conservative parties to bolster the narrative.

Of course they are, because prior to this election the MSM, together with the Muppets that run the Labour party assumed UKIP could only win over former Tory voters, that theory has now been blown out of the water.

 

[J Ed]

I think it's failed. I could be wrong - maybe it significantly deterred would-be UKIP voters, but it seems to me to have had diminishing returns over time on the basis of it being small volumes of more of the same.

I think it's absolutely failed, it was counterproductive and that failure is a good thing. The combined forces of the three main parties (plus the Greens and a few useful idiots on the left) and a supplicant media do not control what goes on and who gets elected.

 

[Joe Reilly]

I guess; but on retrospectively looking for 'racist councillor' I find loads of stories I'd never seen. If such a collation exists, it'd have been better if they'd just unfurled it in a single shot of 'X% candidates saying unpleasant things'.

It's deliberately staggered to convey a sense of 'momentum'. Thus allowing the parties/papers that financially (you don't think they do it for nothing do you?) sponsor HnotH to give 'shock and awe' expressions on a daily basis.

 

[mauvais]

Farage's standard response has been 'I don't know the man'. He appears not to know any UKIP members at all. Be harder for him to say that faced with a whole list of names.

Exactly. If you're going to go to war with someone or something, you'd prefer to deliver a single blow with everything you can muster, not set out only ever hoping to eventually defeat them via piecemeal attrition.

In this sense, the best available vector now for attacking UKIP is it having profited from its failure to address racism and homophobia within its ranks; it's a much weaker charge than simultaneously catching a large number of members at those very acts, so the whole thing is on the back foot. I'm sure there'll be more opportunities, of course, but the current method of delivery has fallen on its arse.

 

[common.sense]

I think there was policy in there and to be fair to the Labour Party on pithy issues. I'm sure the Greens and Lib Dems had acres of it. But who was going to hear it? The election was fought on a single issue and in this respect UKIP did only moderately well, though a bigger win in the Euros may be revealed. It may indeed be UKIP's high watermark as the EU 'question' may be 'settled' if the Tories get back in.

They didn't do 'moderately well', you clown!

They scored an average somewhere around 25-30% + in the areas they fielded candidates, despite the fact that most of the council areas up for election this year were more urban areas.

IIRC their national average score was 17%, but that was because they didn't stand in every area, and London deflated their share somewhat.

Hence, the Tories & Labour are shitting themselves.

Not so much the LibDems, because they know they are dead meat anyway.

 

[common.sense]

Fuck off dickhead. I voted for UKiP because of morons like you! I hate the bastards but I hate you more.

Well, you're a right fucking charmer.

And, a complete dickhead.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

[QUOTEsmokedout, post: 13158665, member: 15335"]you go on and on and on about Ukip, you even have a blog about them don't you? why do you expect the press to be any different, you're lapping it up and so are lots of other people.[/QUOTE]

I try to keep a balanced perspective. I do talk a lot about the degree of attention they get, and that is always going to be problematic in possibly feeding flames. But totally ignoring systemic media frenzy is tricky too. Do we just let it carry on un challenged? Its the same with the migration hate and benefit lies.

I do not have a blog about ukip. I've written 2 pieces on them in a year, hardly obsessive.

 

[SpineyNorman]

promising username there common.sense

 

[SpineyNorman]

I try to keep a balanced perspective. I do talk a lot about the degree of attention they get, and that is always going to be problematic in possibly feeding flames. But totally ignoring systemic media frenzy is tricky too. Do we just let it carry on un challenged? Its the same with the migration hate and benefit lies.

I do not have a blog about ukip. I've written 2 pieces on them in a year, hardly obsessive.

To be fair that's two more than pretty much anyone else who isn't a member of UKIP.

And please try and quote properly, it's a right pain in the arse having to reformat every reply to you.

 

[butchersapron]

40 000+members. I bet he

Exactly. If you're going to go to war with someone or something, you'd prefer to deliver a single blow with everything you can muster, not set out only ever hoping to eventually defeat them via piecemeal attrition.

In this sense, the best available vector now for attacking UKIP is it having profited from its failure to address racism and homophobia within its ranks; it's a much weaker charge than simultaneously catching a large number of members at those very acts, so the whole thing is on the back foot. I'm sure there'll be more opportunities, of course, but the current method of delivery has fallen on its arse.

Nah. It wasn't that these shocking revelations were spread out over an extended period that failed to impact on their vote, it was much more complicated than that - and frankly, doing them all at once might have backfired even worse than the drip drip did for a number of reasons - a) Farage genuinely doesn't know everyone in a 40 000 member party b) for every one you could find similar or worse in labour, lib-dem, tory or green c) as the drip drip backfire indicated - the public don't really do being told what to think and why by the media. Such an approach by a united media would likely only further highlight how they (the media and non-ukip politicians) all piss in the same pot - further cementing ukips credibility in opposing this lash-up and undermining anything that same media and politician cosy set up has to say about ukip. Essentially these stories do no matter no matter how the media and non-ukip politicans choose to present them.

Best available vector for who btw?

 

[brogdale]

promising username there common.sense

homage to the son of the Thetford corset-maker?

 

[Mr Moose]

I think it's absolutely failed, it was counterproductive and that failure is a good thing. The combined forces of the three main parties (plus the Greens and a few useful idiots on the left) and a supplicant media do not control what goes on and who gets elected.

Funny, cause the non-labour left have been swimming against the tide of a hostile media for years and never won anything through elections. If the public see through it as you suggest they must all be a bit shit.

Some of the stories just get out as they happen, or because X person is now a candidate or a councillor. That's perfectly understandable.

I'm glad the stories come out. If you want to use social media to pick on gay people ride the fucking whirlwind whoever you are. And UKIP have these creeps crawling from under every rock. The public will in the end reject them for it.

 

[butchersapron]

Odd dynamic here - we have on one hand the usual omg the media must shut up about UKIP because that promotes them and we know that the mass of people believe what they're told by the media and on the the other we have the media relentlessly assaulting UKIP. So, if the former is in anyway true we would expect to see a UKIP collapse wouldn't we? What happens to that model when the UKIP vote and support rises during that period of sustained attack by the media? I've yet to see the media obsessed try to square that circle. I think the situation demands that they do though.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Lol at common.sense

 

[Mr Moose]

They didn't do 'moderately well', you clown!

They scored an average somewhere around 25-30% + in the areas they fielded candidates, despite the fact that most of the council areas up for election this year were more urban areas....

I suggest you have a look at the results again and then get some manners.

 

[common.sense]

Getting pretty pissed off with hearing UKIP described as 'the fourth party' when they haven't even got a single MP. DUP have 8 MPs. SNP have 6. Sinn Fein have 5. If it doesn't apply to the south of England it doesn't count, obviously.

They are the 'the fourth party' in terms of the popular vote across the UK, in fact they may end-up being 'the first party' on that basis when the Euro-election results are declared.

The likes of the DUP, SNP & SF don't come anywhere near the support that UKIP has, across the whole of the UK.

And, it's fuck-all to do with the south of England - they have done well in the north of England too.

 

[Mr Moose]

Odd dynamic here - we have on one hand the usual omg the media must shut about UKIP because that promotes them and we know that the mass of people believe what they're told by the media and on the the other we have the media relentlessly assaulting UKIP. So, if the former is in anyway true we would expect to see a UKIP collapse wouldn't we? What happens to that model when the UKIP vote and support rises during that period of sustained attack by the media? I've yet to see the media obsessed try to square that circle. I think the situation demands that they do though.

There is a big difference between the media endlessly reporting the UKIP 'phenomenon' and debating immigration as if it's the only issue and the media getting stuck into them with the same rigour as they would for their rivals.

 

[Pere Duchesne]

And, it's fuck-all to do with the south of England - they have done well in the north of England too.

From certain perspectives, the south of England begins just below Cumbria and Northumberland.

I still don't know what to make of the Danelaw correlation.

 

[mauvais]

Nah. It wasn't that these shocking revelations were spread out over an extended period that failed to impact on their vote, it was much more complicated than that - and frankly, doing them all at once might have backfired even worse than the drip drip did for a number of reasons - a) Farage genuinely doesn't know everyone in a 40 000 member party b) for every one you could find similar or worse in labour, lib-dem, tory or green c) as the drip drip backfire indicated - the public don't really do being told what to think and why by the media. Such an approach by a united media would likely only further highlight how they (the media and non-ukip politicians) all piss in the same pot - further cementing ukips credibility in opposing this lash-up and undermining anything that same media and politician cosy set up has to say about ukip. Essentially these stories do no matter no matter how the media and non-ukip politicans choose to present them.

It's a fair argument I suppose, although I'm not sure I entirely agree. I'm merely thinking of recent complex scandals of any flavour, so for instance phone hacking; they made a much deeper impact on the public when a large number of individual as-they-happen stories were consolidated into one lump. I agree most with your point about anti-media, anti-establishment (not that UKIP are realistically any different) so some of the vote was pretty much indestructible on this occasion, but I also think those same votes won't hold longer term.

Best available vector for who btw?

Anyone looking to inflict damage on UKIP by scandal rather than political argument.

 

[butchersapron]

There is a big difference between the media endlessly reporting the UKIP 'phenomenon' and debating immigration as if it's the only issue and the media getting stuck into them with the same rigour as they would for their rivals.

Are you saying that they've not been under relentless attack from all quarters of the media over the last 4 weeks? Because they have you know. And the model that suggests that people do what the media tells them to would suggest this would lead to a drop in their support. And it hasn't.

 

[butchersapron]

From certain perspectives, the south of England begins just below Cumbria and Northumberland.

I still don't know what to make of the Danelaw correlation.

If you're going to fail-flounce would you have the common decency to come back under your own name please?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Everyone knows that people just vote for the party the MSM!!!111!! tell them to vote for. Apart from people who know that people just vote for the party the MSM tell them to vote for. Those people are free thinkers and in no way influenced by the media. We Should probably make it so the only peopLe aLLowed to vote are those people who know about the MSM and how it influences the feeble minded.

POWER TO THE LIBERAL INTELLIGENTSIA!!!

 

[Mr Moose]

Are you saying that they've not been under relentless attack from all quarters of the media over the last 4 weeks? Because they have you know. And the model that suggests that people do what the media tells them to would suggest this would lead to a drop in their support. And it hasn't.

It's possible that in 4 months things may seem different to 4 weeks let alone a year. But given that they had an open goal to shoot at for this election, Tories facing the backlash of being in power, Labour ineffectual, Lib Dems collapsed, maybe the negative press helped avoid a real spectacular. They could have maxxed out on anti-Europe feeling, but, in the local elections at least, they didn't.

I do agree that it's counter productive to demonise the UKIP vote, but the party's character should be exposed, in a way just like any one else who wants power.