Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i'm sorry, i don't see how part two of your sentence supports or otherwise relates to part one of your sentence.
Ukip - why are they gaining support?
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J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I assume that TL means that some came from South Yemen back when it was a socialist state so some have some exposure to Marxism and/or are supportive of left-wing ideas.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
No, that's true, I don't see any other way it could work. I just get frustrated at the relentless concentration on immigration, overwhelming every other economic policy.
And, really, I'm not prepared to deal with UKIP or other anti-immigration positions as being reasonable ones - they're specifically aggressive towards me, my family and a lot of my friends. I find it a challenge to treat people subscribing to them as worth listening to. I can understand how they come to those positions but they are basically telling me and mine to fuck off.
Yes, joking, exaggerating or something. They actually pissed me off more than UKIP yesterday.You are joking right?People behaving bonkers and saying daft things
Do pagans make you want to join the Catholic church?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh but in that case why did they come to britain instead of building socialism in south yemen? tbh all i want treelover to do is say what he meant and we can move on instead of getting bogged down in this over many posts.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Yep, one of my Yemeni students fought for Mengistu, back in the day. When he goes back to visit he finds it odd to see his old comrades all heading off to the mosque. Don't think he'd been seen dead voting UKIP though.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Me as well - I've got a black partner with 2 mixed race teenagers and a mixed race grandson. I have no time for ideological racists, don't see the point in even trying with them. But with the softer types for whom anti-immigrant stuff is in effect a way of explaining the shit they're going through I hold my nose and have a go - it's the only way it's going to be beaten. I do understand why others aren't prepared to do that though.
Sometimes it is more complex though - the example from above of the Yemeni community - a lot of its members have voted UKIP because there's been an influx of Eastern European migrants into the area, putting massive additional strains onto already tight resources. I really don't think the term racism makes sense here - it's a pragmatic attempt at protecting the interests of them and theirs.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I also treat anti-immigrant stances as personally hostile towards me. What UKIP appear to be both developing and thriving off is the idea that social problems x, y and z (eg suppressed wages, unaffordable houses or joblessness) could be solved if only we got rid of lots of the immigrants. By magic - all the mechanisms of 'free market' capitalism remain in place, and are in fact reinforced. That's why I find it depressing when anyone on the left cheers votes for UKIP. At best that is one more person who needs to be persuaded that the problem is not what they think it is. At worst, it is a victory for bigotry. Either way, it is a sign of a step in the wrong direction.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there's one family i can think of, the worst sort of freeloading immigrants, who've wangled a top-notch central london mansion: but as they've managed to get british nationality by hook or by crook we can't send them packing as they so richly deserve
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
My fear is also that Labour's response to this will not be to acknowledge the problems and the real causes of those problems, but instead to try to assuage fears of immigration. To set forward measures to limit access to the NHS or other services to people from other parts of the EU, for instance. I suspect that this will be their response over the coming year. The focus groups will tell them to do it. 
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Wow! It's an EARTHQUAKE!!!!!
Here's some major changes to look out for in the new political landscape:
- Lots of moaning about immigration in the press.
- Lots of being told we must take concerns about immigration seriously
- Lots of articles about the amazing Nigel Farage and his dynamic party
- Lots of being told that we shouldn't really say racists, sexists and homophobes are racist, sexist... you get the picture.
- A fairly small number of politicians replacing some other politicians and being at least as likely to be useless gravytrain riders (maybe miss this one out)
THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!!!
Here's some major changes to look out for in the new political landscape:
- Lots of moaning about immigration in the press.
- Lots of being told we must take concerns about immigration seriously
- Lots of articles about the amazing Nigel Farage and his dynamic party
- Lots of being told that we shouldn't really say racists, sexists and homophobes are racist, sexist... you get the picture.
- A fairly small number of politicians replacing some other politicians and being at least as likely to be useless gravytrain riders (maybe miss this one out)
THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!!!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There is an alternative scenario in which this is UKIP's high point. They don't kick on with the general elections, where their absence of a first idea what to do beyond shouting boo at the EU and immigrants therefrom is exposed rather badly.
I don't think it's physically possible to talk (ie moan) more about immigration than it has been over the last few days, even weeks. I'm physically sick of it.
Fortunately, in that respect, we had no local election here.
A few more thoughts.
It is good that Ukip have taken the right slightly leftward. 291,000 people voted BNP in 2007.
But I do think the party is going to find it hard to push on from here if the economy improves, if it fails to win any MPs in 2015. We have seen this before with the Greens and BNP.
The Liberals are widely seen as being hated, UKIP got around 37pc (off top of head maths) of the seats the Liberals got.
So called `Essex man` - which used to be so important on election nights - has fallen out of love with the Tories.
It is amazing how Labour has completely lost parts of working class voters and doesn't even seem to be making any attempt to get them back. Milliband and Balls really look like liabilities now.
All the parties of the left, TUSC, Left Unity and any others you can name, must merge into one group. Take the lessons from IU in Spain and Syriza.
But as I said a couple of pages back, there is an opportunity now to take Ukip voters. All the parties will be looking at how to nick them...
What price now on a Labour, Liberal and Green coalition after 2015?
It is good that Ukip have taken the right slightly leftward. 291,000 people voted BNP in 2007.
But I do think the party is going to find it hard to push on from here if the economy improves, if it fails to win any MPs in 2015. We have seen this before with the Greens and BNP.
The Liberals are widely seen as being hated, UKIP got around 37pc (off top of head maths) of the seats the Liberals got.
So called `Essex man` - which used to be so important on election nights - has fallen out of love with the Tories.
It is amazing how Labour has completely lost parts of working class voters and doesn't even seem to be making any attempt to get them back. Milliband and Balls really look like liabilities now.
All the parties of the left, TUSC, Left Unity and any others you can name, must merge into one group. Take the lessons from IU in Spain and Syriza.
But as I said a couple of pages back, there is an opportunity now to take Ukip voters. All the parties will be looking at how to nick them...
What price now on a Labour, Liberal and Green coalition after 2015?
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics...onservativehome-conference-politics-live-blog
The Tories are having a conference today where they are examining how to get back the working class vote they used to have and combat UKIP, ideas include: supporting unions, backing a higher minimum wage and promoting aspiration, lots of it coming from Robert Halfon who seems to have the political antennae of a Tebbit.
The Tories are having a conference today where they are examining how to get back the working class vote they used to have and combat UKIP, ideas include: supporting unions, backing a higher minimum wage and promoting aspiration, lots of it coming from Robert Halfon who seems to have the political antennae of a Tebbit.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's also, interestingly (at least to me!), a very similar anti-criticism tactic as adopted by the identity-politickers in the '80s - represent criticism as social prejudice - and some people will feel equally as uncomfortable contradicting Farage as they did contradicting the "speaking as a..." types back then.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
there's one family i can think of, the worst sort of freeloading immigrants, who've wangled a top-notch central london mansion: but as they've managed to get british nationality by hook or by crook we can't send them packing as they so richly deserve
There's never a Bren gun around when you need one.
1%er
Well-Known Member
The more the other parties and the media cried "RACISTS" the more support UKIP appeared to get, I didn't see or read anything about policy/manifestos, just racism. A very British election.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
What you need is enlightenment.
May I suggest you achieve it via the medium of hitting yourself round the head with a crowbar, you tart?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
UKIP are extremely and deliberately policy-light. By being policy-light they can "capture" people who might not otherwise vote for them if they had a codified agenda. UKIP discourse on a lot of subjects, but a lot of it is deniable, so the party can disavow any loonery from the membership, without alienating the membership or the wider electorate.
It's a suitable tactic that has been used successfully many times before. it also means that you're more difficult for the opposition to nail down.
1%er
Well-Known Member
But why was there no discussion about policy by the big 3, after all it was an election.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Playing the underog will obviously take them only so far, as will avoiding getting bogged down in policy. That lack of policy will only work against them if they don't fill the gap with something consistent and appealing in the meantime, though, and if they play off of what the other parties are unwilling to do, they may win a seat or two.
Of course, a good GE result is also dependant on whether they're interested in playing in that arena. Local and regional power is more immediate, less mediated and therefore can be more appealing than the Parliamentary circus.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Could it be because there are really only fairly minor nuances separating their mainstream neo-liberal policies, whereas there's more differentiation to be had from posturing?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Quite so. And now, in the post-election fall-out, we have representatives of their established political rivals cornered into a position where they now have to repeatedly, publicly spout that they "respect" UKIP, "respect" those who voted for them, are "listening" to their angst, are "hearing" their grievances and "working hard" to address those concerns. All very rewarding for those that went and put a cross down for Farage; wonder what conclusions they'll draw from the experience?
1%er
Well-Known Member
If that is true, it say a lot about the state of politics in the UK nowadays.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Because national policy isn't particularly applicable at the local level, so policy is more localised. People vote in local elections for the candidate who's most likely to improve a local situation, or whose party is promising to find the money to re-surface the roads, not because the candidate's national party is in favour of crucifying benefit claimants or some such.
1%er
Well-Known Member
I see, I think. So in these elections voters went for individuals rather than party?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Not in the Euros.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's been true for the last 20 years - since Blair became Labour leader. Some would say longer - since Kinnock.
But UKIP are also a neo-liberal party, albeit an incoherent one. Their policies, such as they are, are not coherent because they seek to be business-friendly ('we'll cut the red tape, cut taxes, establish small government', etc) at the same time as offering vague promises of protectionism to British workers. The more you look in to UKIP, the less you find.
TBH a vote for UKIP is also a vote for another version of 'business as usual' - and a pretty savage version of it.
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