Too many immigration threads on UK P&P?

[Knotted]

And you're just as bad; none of you want to discuss any of this seriously; you're too defensive and, rather than refute any points put you, you issue insults and abuse.

I've called you defensive once, and yet for several days now you have been calling people defensive willy-nilly. This is the thing that worries me about you. Have I done you serious psychological harm? You should give yourself a rest from urban.

 

[nino_savatte]

No

No

No

No


Can you please answer my questions now, thanks.

Au revoir, auf wiedersehen, bugger off.

 

[nino_savatte]

I've called you defensive once, and yet for several days now you have been calling people defensive willy-nilly. This is the thing that worries me about you. Have I done you serious psychological harm? You should give yourself a rest from urban.

No, you have never once called me "defensive". All you have done is make cheap shots, lied and misrepresented my posts. Like your chums, you're very dishonest and you ave no intention of discussing anything that doesn't conform to your views. You would much rather accuse others of the things that you are guilty of.

That isn't very mature, is it? I get a better quality of discussion from my 4 year auld grandson.

 

[Knotted]

No, you have never once called me "defensive". All you have done is make cheap shots, lied and misrepresented my posts. Like your chums, you're very dishonest and you ave no intention of discussing anything that doesn't conform to your views. You would much rather accuse others of the things that you are guilty of.

That isn't very mature, is it? I get a better quality of discussion from my 4 year auld grandson.

I know exactly what I've said to you and this is the second time you've tried to fling it back at me. Not that it matters to me, its just worrying that you are that upset by such a small thing. Take a break.

 

[nino_savatte]

I know exactly what I've said to you and this is the second time you've tried to fling it back at me. Not that it matters to me, its just worrying that you are that upset by such a small thing. Take a break.

No, you think you know what you said...there's a big difference. Besides, you've shown yourself to be a liar on this thread, not once but twice.

I take everything you say with a tonne of salt.

You can take your advice and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Thanks for derailing my thread, chump.

 

[Lock&Light]

I get a better quality of discussion from my 4 year auld grandson.

That doesn't surprise me. I don't expect he disagrees with you much.

 

[nino_savatte]

That doesn't surprise me. I don't expect he disagrees with you much.

Says the poster whose only reason for being here is to snipe and stalk posters that he doesn't like.

You're about 4 years old yourself, aren't you?

You've been told about stalking me.

 

[Knotted]

No, you think you know what you said...there's a big difference. Besides, you've shown yourself to be a liar on this thread, not once but twice.

I take everything you say with a tonne of salt.

You can take your advice and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Thanks for derailing my thread, chump.

Your thread. That just about sums it all up. It was about you from beginning to end, so in that sense I'm keeping it very much on topic.

ETA: But what was the last subject you were addressing. Oh yes, so are Red Action trots or not? But I'm not going to press you on a subject you know nothing about.

 

[Lock&Light]

You've been told about stalking me.

I am not stalking you, nino, and never have done. What I'm doing is responding to comments you, and others, make on a public bulletin board.

 

[audiotech]

nino is a troll .. if he does not like a political opinion he will disrupt the threads .. this is sad very sad

worse than that he implies racism to smear anyone who thinks differrently from him .. very very sad

he keeps on about how many immigration thread there are .. he should post a list and then we can all see that they were/are about how the w/c is affected by migration, whether it is an issue and what solutions there are

because he disagrees with even discussing the issue he disrupts the threads .. if this was a meeting he would have been thrown out by now ..

The Margaret Hodge of urban75 speaks.

 

[nino_savatte]

Your thread. That just about sums it all up. It was about you from beginning to end, so in that sense I'm keeping it very much on topic.

ETA: But what was the last subject you were addressing. Oh yes, so are Red Action trots or not? But I'm not going to press you on a subject you know nothing about.

I began this thread, pal and you came along with your pal, durutti and proceeded to try and hijackit and set your agenda. I began the thread and I set the agenda. It's tough shit if you don't like it but I am not here to serve your needs or your interests. You keep saying "He's ruined the thread" to durutti...when I'm the one who started it. For a complete fool, you are rather too full of yourself.

 

[nino_savatte]

I am not stalking you, nino, and never have done. What I'm doing is responding to comments you, and others, make on a public bulletin board.

You're a liar.

 

[Knotted]

I began this thread, pal and you came along with your pal, durutti and proceeded to try and hijackit and set your agenda. I began the thread and I set the agenda. It's tough shit if you don't like it but I am not here to serve your needs or your interests. You keep saying "He's ruined the thread" to durutti...when I'm the one who started it. For a complete fool, you are rather too full of yourself.

Sure thing boss. I'm terrible aren't I? Anyway why don't you go out and enjoy the sun? Its a lovely day. I'm off. (Do your last word thing if you must)

 

[treelover]

Nino needs a holiday break from Urban

 

[becky p]

Nino needs a holiday break from Urban

7 years in North Korea.

 

[_angel_]

Whoever you claim not to be, you're nothing but trouble. Goodbye.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Margaret Hodge of urban75 speaks.

Naughty!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, it is really sad that he's gone, isn't it?

(when I say sad, I mean "totally and utterly irrelevant and meaningless, like the banned poster", by the way)

 

[audiotech]

Naughty!

...but nice.

 

[Lock&Light]

You're a liar.

You really are a silly boy, nino.

 

[nino_savatte]

You really are a silly boy, nino.

You're a thick cunt who tries to make up for his lack of intelligence by making snide remarks.

 

[durruti02]

The Margaret Hodge of urban75 speaks.

mc .. honestly mate .. is this the level of politics you aspire to? i'm serious .. these boards could be useful in helping regrow the left in this country and yet you spend more on these childish one liners than on serious debate ..why?
indeed why bother..

 

[durruti02]

I began this thread, pal and you came along with your pal, durutti and proceeded to try and hijackit and set your agenda. I began the thread and I set the agenda. It's tough shit if you don't like it but I am not here to serve your needs or your interests. You keep saying "He's ruined the thread" to durutti...when I'm the one who started it. For a complete fool, you are rather too full of yourself.

nino did start it .. but has not proved anything .. he has not proved his suggestion that there is something malicious in the threads on immigration . he has not found or shown any evidence and or pattern, or anything .. as there is none

tbh the OP does not actually refer to me at all ( so maybe i should not be responding to it but i can guarantee it was aimed at me ) as i neither support border control nor the ( false) concept of nation states. I am coming at this debate from the shop flooor angle and the angle of analysing what has gone wrong with the left and what we need to do to rebuild it.

This has confused nino almost absolutely because he doesn't appear to come from a workerist angle. nino nevers enters the debate about what workers on the shop floor etc need to do.

In the OP nino admits .. "Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies .... " that migration is happenning and that it is caused by neo liberalism .. he must then also accept that it has an effect .. and that that effect needs to be countered by the workers movement.

However that sentance i qouted above finishes " ...that have been imposed on that country by the US." apart from the idea that neoliberalism is a purely US thing which is nonsense, this appears to suggest that nino belives that migration is a totally PUSH process. I tried to get debate on this in one of my threads. Clearly if we accept and understand neo liberalism and that its policies cause PUSH in many poor countries, we must also accept that they will operate to casue PULL in others, namely UKinc.

it is a shame nino is looking for a conspiracy beneath the surface and a straw man to aim at from me,TB and others. there is none. I do not doubt though that there are right wing trolls on these boards but they are usually obvious.

i will say again to nino and others, that at the start of a probable downturn and with the economy and our lives under real threat from neo liberalism etc we find ourselves in a situation where the left is historically miniscule. And worse we find it holding beliefs that operate against the material interests of the w/c and that worse still the far right have almost unoppsed become the w/c opposoion in this country.

we are not in a period where anyone should be shuting down debate however incomfortable it makes us. we all need to think very hard about what needs to be done. neither should we be constantly ending up in personal attacks. i do admit i lazyly fall into this on occassion. we all need to stop this

look again at these threads i have started ( undoubtedly the focus of this thread).. here is an almost full list of my threads .. ( i have edited out personal ones )

and i have probably started the majority of immigration threads as nino has pointed out maybe 20 times!!

the pattern is how migration benefits the rich and affects the w/c. (also note threads supporting demos at harmonsworth and supportting mainly migrant worker cleaners in the city)
...

Griffin and BNP strategy

Refusal of work and the immigration debate (

Year Zero ...

Marx on immigration ..

the Closed Shop .. good or bad?

Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?

What is so wrong with looking after 'ones own'??

Rootshock - communities

OECD warnd members of UK youth unemployment

Burberry Global Demos on Valentines Day

DWP privatises mail ..

Justice for Hillsborough Demo Video

cesar chavez and illegal immigration ( 1 2 3)

aworldtowin.net/

OECD says immigration pushes wages down

42.9% youth unemployment in London .. comments?

Socialist Worker admits immigration drives down wages!

Polly Toynbee # 1 "Of course the wealthy want an immigration free-for-all"
scissor paper stone 50 BNP v. 200 UAF who wins?

Why are Urban liberal leftists/@s so racist/prejudiced against non immigrants??

Polly Toynbee "Immigration is now making the rich richer and the poor poorer"

'Immigration drives down wages' 'Trade Unionists against the EU constitution'

Tribune article on immigration etc ( 1 2)

Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

Poll: Why do the left believe the govt on immigration but nothing else?

Business leaders seek 'unlimited immigration' from new EU states

CBI says govt supports 'NO Borders'

NIESR shows up immigration lies of state and left ..

Demo at Harmonsworth

Olympics .. again!! and it'll get worse! Observer article

Burberry

Why no John Cruddas for DPM thread???


Cleaners occupy Goldman Sacks on wages demo

hackney co ordination meeting

olympic site now up and running!www.gamesmonitor.org.uk

Defend Queens market Demo Oct28th 2006

Poll: Is the SWP's calling the war for oil as a war against islam their worst lie?

Defend tony Blair!

what the BNP actually say on immigration ..

OCAP appeal 5 sept 06

Excellent article from SP on bnp/immigration .. FAO RMP3

Control/Power;And how the revolution can and will come from the majority ( 1 2)

SWP stall few yards from with Holocaust deniers .. ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)

John Cruddas MP .. alleges government pushing immigration to undermine unions etc

Swper states jews not from Palestine??

Inside Track .. buy to let fuckwits

Ontario Coalition Against Poverty

Olympics CPO/Evictions Protest

BNP humiliated in Leeds!!! ( 1 2)

A wave of occupations?? ( 1 2)

Bolkestein Directive!!! insane EU neo liberalism ( 1 2)

'fight for our homes' .. anti-pathfinder web site

Innocent victims of the war for oil .. ( 1 2)

if we do one thing to defeat all the terrorists ..stop our oil addiction

Canvass returns in Bethnal Green & Bow ??? ( 1 2)

 

[nino_savatte]

nino did start it .. but has not proved anything .. he has not proved his suggestion that there is something malicious in the threads on immigration . he has not found or shown any evidence and or pattern, or anything .. as there is none

tbh the OP does not actually refer to me at all ( so maybe i should not be responding to it but i can guarantee it was aimed at me ) as i neither support border control nor the ( false) concept of nation states. I am coming at this debate from the shop flooor angle and the angle of analysing what has gone wrong with the left and what we need to do to rebuild it.

This has confused nino almost absolutely because he doesn't appear to come from a workerist angle. nino nevers enters the debate about what workers on the shop floor etc need to do.

In the OP nino admits .. "Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies .... " that migration is happenning and that it is caused by neo liberalism .. he must then also accept that it has an effect .. and that that effect needs to be countered by the workers movement.

However that sentance i qouted above finishes " ...that have been imposed on that country by the US." apart from the idea that neoliberalism is a purely US thing which is nonsense, this appears to suggest that nino belives that migration is a totally PUSH process. I tried to get debate on this in one of my threads. Clearly if we accept and understand neo liberalism and that its policies cause PUSH in many poor countries, we must also accept that they will operate to casue PULL in others, namely UKinc.

it is a shame nino is looking for a conspiracy beneath the surface and a straw man to aim at from me,TB and others. there is none. I do not doubt though that there are right wing trolls on these boards but they are usually obvious.

i will say again to nino and others, that at the start of a probable downturn and with the economy and our lives under real threat from neo liberalism etc we find ourselves in a situation where the left is historically miniscule. And worse we find it holding beliefs that operate against the material interests of the w/c and that worse still the far right have almost unoppsed become the w/c opposoion in this country.

we are not in a period where anyone should be shuting down debate however incomfortable it makes us. we all need to think very hard about what needs to be done. neither should we be constantly ending up in personal attacks. i do admit i lazyly fall into this on occassion. we all need to stop this

look again at these threads i have started ( undoubtedly the focus of this thread).. here is an almost full list of my threads .. ( i have edited out personal ones )

and i have probably started the majority of immigration threads as nino has pointed out maybe 20 times!!

the pattern is how migration benefits the rich and affects the w/c. (also note threads supporting demos at harmonsworth and supportting mainly migrant worker cleaners in the city)
...

Griffin and BNP strategy

Refusal of work and the immigration debate (

Year Zero ...

Marx on immigration ..

the Closed Shop .. good or bad?

Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?

What is so wrong with looking after 'ones own'??

Rootshock - communities

OECD warnd members of UK youth unemployment

Burberry Global Demos on Valentines Day

DWP privatises mail ..

Justice for Hillsborough Demo Video

cesar chavez and illegal immigration ( 1 2 3)

aworldtowin.net/

OECD says immigration pushes wages down

42.9% youth unemployment in London .. comments?

Socialist Worker admits immigration drives down wages!

Polly Toynbee # 1 "Of course the wealthy want an immigration free-for-all"
scissor paper stone 50 BNP v. 200 UAF who wins?

Why are Urban liberal leftists/@s so racist/prejudiced against non immigrants??

Polly Toynbee "Immigration is now making the rich richer and the poor poorer"

'Immigration drives down wages' 'Trade Unionists against the EU constitution'

Tribune article on immigration etc ( 1 2)

Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

Poll: Why do the left believe the govt on immigration but nothing else?

Business leaders seek 'unlimited immigration' from new EU states

CBI says govt supports 'NO Borders'

NIESR shows up immigration lies of state and left ..

Demo at Harmonsworth

Olympics .. again!! and it'll get worse! Observer article

Burberry

Why no John Cruddas for DPM thread???


Cleaners occupy Goldman Sacks on wages demo

hackney co ordination meeting

olympic site now up and running!www.gamesmonitor.org.uk

Defend Queens market Demo Oct28th 2006

Poll: Is the SWP's calling the war for oil as a war against islam their worst lie?

Defend tony Blair!

what the BNP actually say on immigration ..

OCAP appeal 5 sept 06

Excellent article from SP on bnp/immigration .. FAO RMP3

Control/Power;And how the revolution can and will come from the majority ( 1 2)

SWP stall few yards from with Holocaust deniers .. ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)

John Cruddas MP .. alleges government pushing immigration to undermine unions etc

Swper states jews not from Palestine??

Inside Track .. buy to let fuckwits

Ontario Coalition Against Poverty

Olympics CPO/Evictions Protest

BNP humiliated in Leeds!!! ( 1 2)

A wave of occupations?? ( 1 2)

Bolkestein Directive!!! insane EU neo liberalism ( 1 2)

'fight for our homes' .. anti-pathfinder web site

Innocent victims of the war for oil .. ( 1 2)

if we do one thing to defeat all the terrorists ..stop our oil addiction

Canvass returns in Bethnal Green & Bow ??? ( 1 2)

You consistently fail to differentiate between immigration, migration and those who are refugees. It's dishonest.

This has confused nino almost absolutely because he doesn't appear to come from a workerist angle. nino nevers enters the debate about what workers on the shop floor etc need to do.

The only person who is "confused" is you; you don't know the difference between a refugee, an immigrant or a migrant worker.

And again, you misquote me.

In the OP nino admits .. "Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies .... " that migration is happenning and that it is caused by neo liberalism .. he must then also accept that it has an effect .. and that that effect needs to be countered by the workers movement.

What happened to the bit that you edited out? I guess it wouldn't serve your 'argument' to quote the text in full - would it? Your "workers" movement is too narrow and too focussed on ideas of national identity. It also embraces a great deal of ignorance.

If you want people to take you seriously, you should try being a little more honest.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is my OP

Recently there have been a rash of immigration threads on UK P&P and one suspects that the motivation behind starting such threads isn't done entirely for reasons of proper discussion. Some of those starting such threads claim that they are not "anti-immigrant" but are against the idea of so-called" economic migration". However when one unpacks what the thread-starter has posted, it becomes clear that they have some rather quaint ideas regarding capitalism, borders, nation-states and migration that verges on the xenophobic. Some posters will claim that they are "internationalists" but will maintain that "economic migration" is wrong and that tighter controls should be imposed at borders and people should be prevented from emigrating, but they offer no solutions to the 'problem'.

For me, there appears to be two types of internationalism: there is one version that works to preserve the concept of the nation-state and, rather than working for the abolition of states and borders, works within a capitalistic framework and stresses "co-operation" between nation-states. There is another form, to which I would subscribe, that maintains that the nation-state is part of the problem and borders need to come down for the sake of world peace and freedom. The former embraces the classic liberal notion of "free trade", while the latter embraces "fair trade".

Those who call for greater "border controls" while calling themselves "socialists" ignore the bigger picture: namely the way in which a country's markets can be dominated by a larger global power in the name of "free trade". Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies that have been imposed on that country by the US. To blame immigrants for the economic malaise of a particular nation-state is nothing more or less than scapegoating.

And this is your version...see the difference? No, you wouldn't; you're blind.

In the OP nino admits .. "Economic migration is caused by the effect of neo-liberal economic policies .... " that migration is happenning and that it is caused by neo liberalism .. he must then also accept that it has an effect .. and that that effect needs to be countered by the workers movement.

Of course you edited out the "by the US". I wonder why?

 

[becky p]

If you want people to take you seriously, you should try being a little more honest.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ah, beckyp with another useful contribution.

I wonder if she saw Newsnight last night? Probably not, too middle class for her...too many words that contain more than one syllable.

 

[Knotted]

This is my OP



And this is your version...see the difference? No, you wouldn't; you're blind.



Of course you edited out the "by the US". I wonder why?

The US isn't the only imperialist country in the world you know. Durrutti was probably just saving you the embarressment of getting your facts wrong and dealing with the substance of what you said. The idea that this generosity is dishonest is beyond belief. Sometimes I just can't believe what you write. Did he really say that? Yes. Really? Yes he did.

I think you actually prefer to look like a complete idiot than to loose face and admit you are wrong on ANYTHING. You won't even clarify what you mean for fear of loosing face. I thought people like this only existed in modern, slightly unpleasant sit coms - the Office, Alan Partridge etc. Its really depressing to see someone humiliate themselves in public for real. Please stop it, its unbareable.

 

[nino_savatte]

The US isn't the only imperialist country in the world you know. Durrutti was probably just saving you the embarressment of getting your facts wrong and dealing with the substance of what you said. The idea that this generosity is dishonest is beyond belief. Sometimes I just can't believe what you write. Did he really say that? Yes. Really? Yes he did.

I think you actually prefer to look like a complete idiot than to loose face and admit you are wrong on ANYTHING. You won't even clarify what you mean for fear of loosing face. I thought people like this only existed in modern, slightly unpleasant sit coms - the Office, Alan Partridge etc. Its really depressing to see someone humiliate themselves in public for real. Please stop it, its unbareable.

Fuck off, you tiresome pest. It's not as if you have anything worth saying either.

Your problem is that you want to constantly set the agenda.

 

[Knotted]

Fuck off, you tiresome pest. It's not as if you have anything worth saying either.

Your problem is that you want to constantly set the agenda.

What would that agenda be? You don't have the first clue what I think. You don't read my posts. You have no idea whether I am in complete agreement with you or not.

What's your agenda? I haven't the faintest idea because you are simply incoherent.

Take my advice. Saying something which isn't appalling or don't say anything at all.