Too many immigration threads on UK P&P?
- Thread starter nino_savatte
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nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
But this isn't about "Open borders" or anything like it, though - is it, baudouin? Your suggestion that this all has something to do with "open borders" is based on a mythological understanding that an expanded EU would lead to "mass migration".
Oddly enough, many natives...or whatever you want to call them, are also being exploited. There are many people who are born in this country who are working for less than the minimum wage. Exploitation is not restricted to hapless foreign workers, it happens to all workers. I guess you failed to spot that while you were in your anti-Left funk -eh?
nino_savatte said:
all workers? I dont think so.
Of course lots of people in this country are exploited too whether they come from Bermondsey or Bulgaria.
I think you will find me and durruti etc have a traceable record of involvement in left wing politics.
Have you ever been politically active?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
I only have your word for that and, as far as I'm concerned, your word isn't worth shit.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Another common baldwin tactic is to claim that his political credentials are more impeccable than the other person's. The trouble is, for him, that it's easy for anyone to see through the charade.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
That might seem so to you, but probably not to anyone else.tbaldwin said:
You said "the UK allowed more people from the expanded EU into the UK", you imply that this government had the power to not allow people from the expanded EU into the UK. I'm saying that allowing doesn't enter the equation, and that under rules our government signed up to in the 1990s they are legally obliged to extend reciprocity.
If you're that concerned about the possible exploitation of citizens from new EU countries, and your concern is longstanding then you should have been expressing your concerns back then.
G-d knows hundreds of thousands of people across the then EU did.
nino_savatte said:
why do you not expect a straight answer?
1) when i posted the ' is immigration part of neo thatcherism' there were leftists who belived the govts then stats that there was mimimal immigration ..
2) i do not use the term mass migration .. i see neo liberal immigration is when the bosses create a demand through through cowboy employment policies and changes in law ( and poor implementation of labour law) and advertise abroad for migrants to come .. so it is demand led
.. mass migration would i guess be when people are forced to migrate by e.g. famine or war, an entirely differrent thing ..
as was also immigration thru the 6ts when we had FULL emplyment and unions generally accepted the need for it
why do i attack the left? i spent between 1977 and 1984 around the sw .. i saw more and more how teh left have become taken over by m/c ideology and hence m/c people .. i think Red Action have some of teh best critiques of teh 'left'
and i agree with RA/IWCA that the left are so divorced from reality and the w/c we need to be building something new and progressive and based on ordianry people and their day to day lives ..
( p.s what you talking to me for .. i'm a bnper arn't i
)durruti02 said:
Its arguable that there is very little immigration.
If you take migration to mean moving to a new country with the intention of settling, then this is true of a shrinking minority of 'migrants'. What we are dealing with here is the movement of (often casual) labour in and out of the country, creating ever greater misery for the 'migrants'. This is why I prefer to talk about the 'globalisation of labour'. This is a thoroughly modern phenonmenon that desperately needs analysing.
audiotech
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durruti02 said:
Red Action don't exist and the IWCA are isolated in a couple of localities in the south. Not a dig there, but the reality.
As for something "new and progressive"? I'm sorry, but I don't see that from you. Just ye olde mutterings about 'sons and daughters' housing policies, 'closed shops' and 'immigration controls', harking back to some bygone age. Eeeeeee, when I was a lad it were grand.
It never was.
tbaldwin said:
Well, other than the fact that it's precisely because there's not an "open borders" situation, with the results that migrants from the expanded EU aren't afforded the same citizenship rights enjoyed by you and I and guaranteeing they'll be ripe for the sort of super-exploitation you describe, you're bang on the money.
Pigeon said:Well, other than the fact that it's precisely because there's not an "open borders" situation, with the results that migrants from the expanded EU aren't afforded the same citizenship rights enjoyed by you and I and guaranteeing they'll be ripe for the sort of super-exploitation you describe, you're bang on the money.
What rights would you like to see extended to Lithuanian workers in the UK,Pigeon?
tbaldwin said:
You could "argue for" anything you like. So what? The reality is that, under contemporary capitalism with its attendant global inequalities, people will migrate. If you advocate immigration control, you advocate the illegality of migrant labour and the creation of a domestic surplus/serf class.[/QUOTE]
tbaldwin said:
I've done no such thing. I've recognised migration as a symptom of economic inequality. That hardly means that I consider it a solution to said equality.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
becky p said:
They don't need any extension of rights to them, they're already entitled (as are ALL EU citizens) to the same protections under law as any other worker in the EU country they're working in.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Pigeon said:
For as long as it takes someone to put these attempts to circumvent the law (by the Germans and French as well as us, it has to be said) regarding citizens of the last wave of accession through the courts, anyway.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
becky p said:Do you think that people from Lithuania should be entitled to a benefit system they havent paid into?
You are a graduate of the Jeremy Kyle School of Economics and I claim my £5. Leave your number and I'll pass it on to the IEA.
Pigeon said:Well, other than the fact that it's precisely because there's not an "open borders" situation, with the results that migrants from the expanded EU aren't afforded the same citizenship rights enjoyed by you and I and guaranteeing they'll be ripe for the sort of super-exploitation you describe, you're bang on the money.
Do you have a vested interest in this subject at all pigeon?
Do you seriously imagine that open borders would lead to less forced prostitution and exploitation?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
becky p said:The question was for Pigeon,not you ali.
I felt entitled to comment. That post, like so many others, is juvenile.
And what do you mean by "ali"? Even your insults stink.
MC5 said:
yes red action /iwca has not thrived .. to me that is not an indictement of their politics but of the idiocy of the british left
yet again you come up with the idea i support immigration controls
.. FFS .. your/this inabity to see the differrence between arguing against a cheap labour society based on migrant labour and for a w/c response to that AND arguing for state controls, sums up really how poor is the lefts analysis of what goes on in this country ..progressive? what??? it is NOT progressive to support basic measures to empower communities??? it is NOT progressive to argue for the closed shop , the one thing that will re create power for w/c people at work?? it is NOT progressive to argue that kids should be allowed to live near their parents??? of course it is progressive to argue these things .. progressive is often taken to mean 'support nicaragua' or 'support rights for polysexual hut sabs' or whatever .. THIS is where we have gone wrong ..
it is more progressive for the left to take the old lady next door to the park than the MEANINGLESS and alienating drivel they come out with .. indeed it is this alienating drivel that TELLS people the left are NOT interested in them ..
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durruti02 said:yes red action /iwca has not thrived .. to me that is not an indictement of their politics but of the idiocy of the british left
yet again you come up with the idea i support immigration controls
progressive? what??? it is NOT progressive to support basic measures to empower communities??? it is NOT progressive to argue for the closed shop , the one thing that will re create power for w/c people at work?? it is NOT progressive to argue that kids should be allowed to live near their parents??? of course it is progressive to argue these things .. progressive is often taken to mean 'support nicaragua' or 'support rights for polysexual hut sabs' or whatever .. THIS is where we have gone wrong ..
it is more progressive for the left to take the old lady next door to the park than the MEANINGLESS and alienating drivel they come out with .. indeed it is this alienating drivel that TELLS people the left are NOT interested in them ..
Rather than blame everyone else for not flocking to the Red Action/IWCA banner, it would seem more worthwhile to analyse why don't you think?
You wish to see further controls on immigrants don't you?
Closed shops excluded workers and empowered union bureaucrats who served only themselves.
The BNP have been arguing for housing for local people in Dagenham recently. It was pointed out to them that this policy would exclude those local people who had left and wanted to return.
Support Nicaragua? Why not when workers were being slaughtered by US backed death squads?
It's doubtful I would support a "polysexual hut sabs" even if I knew what it was.
Many of those in Hackney then? 
nino_savatte said:
That's what every poster thinks. They don't all receive the hysterical abuse you throw at anyone who disagrees with you.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
becky p said:Do you think that people from Lithuania should be entitled to a benefit system they havent paid into?
Under EU law it comes under reciprocity again. If Lithuania (or wherever else in the EU) allows UK citizens resident in Lithuania to claim welfare, then Lithuanian citizens are allowed to claim here.
No reciprocity, no money, unless you've paid UK tax and NI for a qualifying period before claiming.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
MC5 said:It's doubtful I would support a "polysexual hut sabs" even if I knew what it was.
What sort of total cunt, polysexual or not, sabotages huts, ffs?
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