Today was the start of the Great Miners’ Strike of 1984/85.

[beesonthewhatnow]

From some Facebok site John Kowal***k (Leeds) wrote:

"I remember it well because i was a striking miner i worked at Fryston pit in castleford a good close knit pit where the men stuck together & fought for what they believed in . I had only returned back to mining in 1983 & was living in Sherburn in Elmet

That's where I grew up, I remember being round a mates house and seeing his dad walk through the door with his head cracked open courtesy of the met

 

[Das Uberdog]

Is it even possible to have an undemocratic strike?

If a scab believes so violently that they should be in work then they can get in one way or another. As if it's harder for poor scabs to get into work past violent pickets than it is for pickets to stand outside the place and get twatted by police.

If they don't care enough to get beat, or to organise in the union against the strike, or commit to any other form of action, then as far as I can see the strike's perfectly legit.

 

[articul8]

What was Marxism Today was saying about the Miners Strike at the time?

 

[dennisr]

If a scab believes so violently

ehh? - no don't bother fella (with all due respect...)

 

[durruti02]

The miners strike was one of those points where you have to take sides.

For many of the people involved it still touches a raw nerve 25 years later. I can understand that from the point of view of folk who watched hungry people faced with mounting debt, no heating, their kids even refused school dinners, families torn apart, coppers marching through their villages waving overtime cheques at them when not beating them with impunity, all the old security destroyed except basic human solidarity holding you together.

I can even understand that from the point of view of the ruling class - Thatcher, the cabinet, the coal board coldly planning their battles to defend their class.

The defeat of the miner's - of one of the key sections of the organised working class and therefore defense of wider conditions - opened up the chasm that has resulted in the chaos we see today were people don't have real jobs, make real things with real value - were illusions in making a quick buck by 'owning' a bit of property or 'owning' shares or geting stupid levels of 'credit' rather than though our own graft has become the norm. Following on from the lead of those at the top because there was little else on offer (despite the fact we are still working hard like the good little wage slaves we are in practice). And where the rug, finally, gets pulled leaving no real safety net for millions - billions worldwide.

Wasn't just the miners who lost that battle.

spot on

 

[Das Uberdog]

ehh? - no don't bother fella (with all due respect...)

Uhhhhh, ffs with yer 'prolier than thou' monopoly over all things 'industrial dispute'. Well done for being a miner. I'm sorry for not have been a miner. As though anyone who didn't live through it has no right to an opinion either way.

 

[belboid]

i believe it would .. the strike way the strike arose, not being unanimous and not having followed ( legitimately) the same rules as all other unions have, made it harder to argue for solidarity action .. though yes of course that action should have come regardless

Ron Todd wouldn't have allowed the dockers to stay out even if their had been a unanimous vote by them and the miners. Very doubtful the steelworkers would have come out either, and as for NACODS.....

Scargill also failed to try and call out the rank and file of the unions, he refused to go 'over the heads' of the TUC (in no small part because he didn't think it was necessary), and a national ballot wouldn't have made him change ghis mind on that.

A ballot would have made no positive difference whatsoever.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ah, I give up. Cliques using violence and intimidation to try and bring the country to a halt RULEZ OK.

They weren't a "clique", but a trade union, and they weren't "trying to bring the country to a halt", but better their conditions and get assurances about the continuation of the mines.

Get a grip, seriously.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So foreclosing is suddenly a kind of political blackmail? Are you an idiot?

So you think that either an implicit or explicit threat of mass foreclosure isn't some kind of political blackmail? Are you an idiot? You certainly appear to be either hopelessly naive or irretrievably stupid.

It's a strange kind of blackmail that results in sacked boards, almost total shareholder liquidation, and mass layoffs within the supposed culprits...

You're mistaking the people for the entity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

<passes around a bucket>

<shits in bucket>

 

[dylanredefined]

They weren't a "clique", but a trade union, and they weren't "trying to bring the country to a halt", but better their conditions and get assurances about the continuation of the mines.

Get a grip, seriously.

Some seem to think they were trying to bring the government down.Wether that would have been a side effect of deciding not to destroy the mining industry I dont know .Or if it was various onlookers putting their own motives and ideas onto the miners I dont know .
Wether those onlookers were excitable student types or Daily mail types who belived miners were being led by kgb moles or some such rubbish.

 

[dennisr]

I'm sorry for not have been a miner

mmm.... you don't have to be sorry for 'not being a miner'. i don't know where you got the idea i was? they had abolished kids down mines - i'm not that old.

put simply, for the hard of thinking - if you are going to defend the tactic of a strike (and there is plenty of decent arguements...) its probably best to have a coherent arguement - given that, even 25 years later - there are still plenty of vicious ejets determined to condemn the action. otherwise its best to shut up. you are, after all, not just anybody commenting - you are a self-professed socialist and 'revolutionary' supporter of the working class so want to add to the arguments rather than derail them with idiocy.

sorry if i have offended you with the blunt truth. it's nothing to do with any prolitarian credentials I may or may not have though. Neither is it about our respective political affiliations. (can we leave it there, cheers)

 

[marty21]

<shits in bucket>

That'll do nicely


"oh fred goodwin? we'e had a bit of a whip around to help you supplement your paltry pension"

 

[Das Uberdog]

if you are going to defend the tactic of a strike (and there is plenty of decent arguements...) its probably best to have a coherent arguement

The argument isn't coherant? Is it even possible to have an undemocratic strike? A strike is an act of democracy. That is the point.

Ballot or no ballot, a strike will fail if there's no grassroots support. Seems a prefectly sound argument to me; what exactly do you have opposed to it?

 

[dennisr]

The argument isn't coherant?

*sighs*

 

[dennisr]

This is the classic image (nicked from another poster on another thread):

Orgreave, 18 June 84, Lesley Boulton from the Sheffield miner's support group shouts for an ambulance for an injured miner. A mounted policeman swears at her and hits out with his truncheon and she can only raise her hand for protection (Pic: John Harris)

 

[cesare]

She looks so frail as well

 

[Fedayn]

She looks so frail as well

Small yes, frail no. I knew her when she lived up here in Glasgow and was active in Glasgow Anarchists.

 

[dennisr]

She looks so frail as well

Don't be fooled - she was one of those violent pickets holding the 'country' to 'ransom' with their unreasonable demand to not lose their livelihoods, the ones that that Foxy recognised.

Both her and the Miner she was helping were hospitalised as far as I remember - the Miner for a long while. The copper got his overtime and, probably, a pat on the back.

 

[cesare]

Small yes, frail no. I knew her when she lived up here in Glasgow and was active in Glasgow Anarchists.

I didn't mean frail in the spirit or mental sense. Just in the physical one. It brought home the actions of that mounted cop even more - if you see what I mean.

 

[Fedayn]

I didn't mean frail in the spirit or mental sense. Just in the physical one. It brought home the actions of that mounted cop even more - if you see what I mean.

Aye, she was a pretty 'slight' woman if you see what I mean. When I first met her I did the double-take as in 'You mean you're Lesley Boulton, as in that photo Lesley Boulton'....

I'd love to have the 'follow up' story on that photo done, see what became of that scumbag copper.

 

[the button]

I'd love to have the 'follow up' story on that photo done, see what became of that scumbag copper.

Probably got pensioned off early with a shoulder rotator cuff injury from belting so many people.

 

[marty21]

This is the classic image (nicked from another poster on another thread):

Orgreave, 18 June 84, Lesley Boulton from the Sheffield miner's support group shouts for an ambulance for an injured miner. A mounted policeman swears at her and hits out with his truncheon and she can only raise her hand for protection (Pic: John Harris)

It's medieval, a knight whipping a peasant sort of thing, haven't seen that pic before

 

[cesare]

Aye, she was a pretty 'slight' woman if you see what I mean. When I first met her I did the double-take as in 'You mean you're Lesley Boulton, as in that photo Lesley Boulton'....

I'd love to have the 'follow up' story on that photo done, see what became of that scumbag copper.

Definitely. I'd love to know what happened to that man.

 

[dennisr]

It's medieval, a knight whipping a peasant sort of thing, haven't seen that pic before

Yep, Orgreave as well - thats the mass picket that the BBC edited to turn events on thier head that evening - showing the miners (who were in practice responding to police violence) chucking stuff at the police and then showing the police charging them.

Lads there were shocked by just how violent the coppers could be - clothes ripped off backs, pickets in t-shits (hardly ready for a ruck) beaten senseless, returning home to see themselves presented as the attackers

 

[belboid]

Lesley is still around and active in various things around Sheff, lives up the road from me. Interesting interview with here at http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire...2/lesley_boulton_orgreave_photo_feature.shtml

I did read something about the copper on the 20th anniversary, can't remember much about it now, he carried on being a copper basically, iirr

 

[Fedayn]

Yep, Orgreave as well - thats the mass picket that the BBC edited to turn events on thier head that evening -

Which, as butchers alluded to a few weeks ago, the current BBC head Mark Thompson, effectively retracted their piss poor apology for last year.

 

[Fedayn]

Lesley is still around and active in various things around Sheff, lives up the road from me. Interesting interview with here at http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire...2/lesley_boulton_orgreave_photo_feature.shtml

I did read something about the copper on the 20th anniversary, can't remember much about it now, he carried on being a copper basically, iirr

Good to hear she's still about.

 

[dylanredefined]

Weren't there claims that photo was faked at the time?Pretty sure I was accepting everything the mail printed as true back then

 

[durruti02]

Ron Todd wouldn't have allowed the dockers to stay out even if their had been a unanimous vote by them and the miners. Very doubtful the steelworkers would have come out either, and as for NACODS.....

Scargill also failed to try and call out the rank and file of the unions, he refused to go 'over the heads' of the TUC (in no small part because he didn't think it was necessary), and a national ballot wouldn't have made him change ghis mind on that.

A ballot would have made no positive difference whatsoever.

i really disagree mate .. i saw the rcp banging away about this at the time, and was not sure then, was more interested in doing collections etc, but with hindsight i am convinced it was an achilles heal all the way through