There's no such thing as left and right anymore...

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Point taken, but this thread did specifically address the topic. Let me make another point then.

Even as a descriptor, the Left/Right metaphor is useless today.

So control of the means of production/distribution/infrastrucrture etc. are no longer relevant political issues?

 

[butchersapron]

Your memory must be shot.

No, no labour people pushed the bailouts as the return of socialism/marxism. You are making it up. Give us some examples.

 

[cesare]

The concept of national socialism is hardly new, and still right wing.

 

[phildwyer]

So control of the means of production/distribution/infrastrucrture etc. are no longer relevant political issues?

They are. But what is the "Leftist" position on them, and what is the "Rightist" position?

 

[J Ed]

..because recognising fascist slogans is the same thing as being a Stalinist Kommissar

 

[butchersapron]

Sheltering lib-dems. It's coming.

 

[butchersapron]

Phil, none of this ever effects you - you're a privileged rich white man, you're a prof now is it? This is why it's always a joke to you. Off this thread.

 

[J Ed]

Labour politicians did, and some still do, push the idea that the Iraq War was some kind of emancipatory internationalist crusade. Oh no, this destroys the whole paradigm! The left is dead, time to join with the fascists in the war on usury!

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What's really underpins the statement is often right wing populism. You get a bunch of politicians who pander to it, all the small state fetishists, who say "hey, government is shit. tch. uselss. Vote for me" - and people drool behind them saying "wow, that guys really with it, politics is shit, government is shit. I'll vote for them."

While I don't much trust government, it could and should be at least democratically accountable and capable of doing things in the public interest rather than the interests of capital.

Anyone who runs for government on the premise of saying "government is shit" is probably worthy of a wide berth. Like so much of mordern right wing populism, it's a hoax.

 

[phildwyer]

..because recognising fascist slogans is the same thing as being a Stalinist Kommissar

No. But attempting to smear an idea on the sole grounds that Fascists share it is silly.

 

[manny-p]

No. But attempting to smear an idea on the sole grounds that Fascists believe it is silly.

Oh dear god. This has got you started again.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

They are. But what is the "Leftist" position on them, and what is the "Rightist" position?

Do you really need to be told?

 

[phildwyer]

Labour politicians did, and some still do, push the idea that the Iraq War was some kind of emancipatory internationalist crusade. Oh no, this destroys the whole paradigm! The left is dead, time to join with the fascists in the war on usury!

If you think the Left/Right metaphor is still valid, then you ought to be able to define "Left" and "Right."

Or at least somebody ought to.

Can anybody?

 

[phildwyer]

Do you really need to be told?

Yes. For example, is state ownership of the means of production a "Lefitst" or a "Rightist" position?

This is not an easy question, is it?

 

[butchersapron]

If you think the Left/Right metaphor is still valid, then you ought to be able to define "Left" and "Right."

Or at least somebody ought to.

Can anybody?

In line with your commitments made to me, you are off this thread - yes?

 

[phildwyer]

Phil, none of this ever effects you - you're a privileged rich white man, you're a prof now is it? This is why it's always a joke to you. Off this thread.

It's not a joke to me Butchers, and you know it.

 

[phildwyer]

In line with your commitments made to me, you are off this thread - yes?

Do what I asked first and we'll see.

 

[butchersapron]

So no. Bye then. Dishonorable cur.

 

[phildwyer]

So no. Bye then. Dishonorable cur.

You know the rules.

 

[weltweit]

If you think the Left/Right metaphor is still valid, then you ought to be able to define "Left" and "Right."

Or at least somebody ought to.

Can anybody?

Well, one simplistic argument is that the left is for big government and the right for small.

 

[phildwyer]

Well, one simplistic argument is that the left is for big government and the right for small.

So where does that put Hitler?

 

[Casually Red]

the way I see it the traditional european left have largely given up on the economic and anti imperialist front and instead concentrated on the issues and arena Phil Dwyer identifies . Which I personally dont regard as left wing positions at all as neo liberals often have the very same position . And the very stance taken often compliments the neo liberal position rather than opposes it . A neo liberal capitalist can be just as fervent a supporter of unrestricted immigration, no borders, gay marriage etc as any leftie . Just as intolerant and dismissive of any spiritual beliefs etc .
The more irrelevant they become the more they will focus on the minutiae of irrelevance . Id agree with him up to a point about some of the more tiresome traits that accompany that irrelevance and surrender.

where I completely disagree with him is that theres no such thing as left and right any more in the ideological sense . There is, just as there always was . Its just that the left in most of western europe have largely surrendered in the face of neo liberal western supremacy, lost their relevance and become incapable of inspiring the disaffected to any great degree . Unlike the right who have had little difficulty hoovering that former leftist disaffection up in places like France. And who on occasion sound more left wing than mainstream leftists.

there are thankfully though more places on earth than western europe .

 

[weltweit]

So where does that put Hitler?

Does Hitler have to figure in a debate on UK politics?

 

[phildwyer]

Does Hitler have to figure in a debate on UK politics?

The point is that there are plenty of people on the traditional "Right" who favor big government.

 

[cesare]

In line with your commitments made to me, you are off this thread - yes?

What commitments did he make to you?

 

[Nice one]

No. That's how interested i am.

13 posts in less than 2 pages that's how not intrested you are

 

[phildwyer]

the way I see it the traditional european left have largely given up on the economic and anti imperialist front and instead concentrated on the issues and arena Phil Dwyer identifies . Which I personally dont regard as left wing positions at all

This is one good reason I think the terms are obsolete.

As the term is currently used, one can be "Left-wing" and pro-capitalist so long as one is anti-racist, anti-sexist etc. Which I think makes a mockery of the term.

 

[weltweit]

The point is that there are plenty of people on the traditional "Right" who favor big government.

I think in British politics it holds - right means smaller and left means bigger.
At least it used to. These days as mentioned labour and tory are very similar in most things.

 

[butchersapron]

the way I see it the traditional european left have largely given up on the economic and anti imperialist front and instead concentrated on the issues and arena Phil Dwyer identifies . Which I personally dont regard as left wing positions at all as neo liberals often have the very same position . And the very stance taken often compliments the neo liberal position rather than opposes it . A neo liberal capitalist can be just as fervent a supporter of unrestricted immigration, no borders, gay marriage etc as any leftie . Just as intolerant and dismissive of any spiritual beliefs etc .
The more irrelevant they become the more they will focus on the minutiae of irrelevance . Id agree with him up to a point about some of the more tiresome traits that accompany that irrelevance and surrender.

where I completely disagree with him is that theres no such thing as left and right any more in the ideological sense . There is, just as there always was . Its just that the left in most of western europe have largely surrendered in the face of neo liberal western supremacy, lost their relevance and become incapable of inspiring the disaffected to any great degree . Unlike the right who have had little difficulty hoovering that former leftist disaffection up in places like France. And who on occasion sound more left wing than mainstream leftists.

there are thankfully though more places on earth than western europe .

Bizarre post. The left have given up on their traditional social liberalism? Which is causing support for parties supporting anti-social-liberalism. Which means they become more irrelevant whilst the ideas they used to support when they hared gays and foreigners become more popular. What a confused boy.

 

[butchersapron]

13 posts in less than 2 pages that's how not intrested you are

In what way does that indicate intrest?