There's no such thing as left and right anymore...

[ska invita]

People seem to say that a lot. Could anyone who thinks that explain what it is they mean by it?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

They probably mean that they are disappointed with the political choices available in the party sense.

 

[butchersapron]

People seem to say that a lot. Could anyone who thinks that explain what it is they mean by it?

Do they that? I don't think they do. What makes you think that they do? (If, not interested fine)

 

[phildwyer]

I say it.

Been through this a lot lately, so will just repost what I put on the November 14th thread for now.

As I say, I think pro- or anti-capitalist would be better, as it would identify the truly significant ideological and political division more accurately than the C18th spatial metaphor.

One problem with the Left/Right terminology is that it allows subsiduary matters to obscure the main issue. I think the "Left's" involvement in identity politics has caused all sorts of problems in this regard. We can see it all over these boards, and all over every similar discussion group or political movement: everyone furiously scrutinizing each other's words for some verbal slip-up that might reveal them as "really" on the "right" because of some secret or unconscious prejudice or other. And pretty soon we're in a situation where "Left-wing" just means "tolerant" or "nice" or "decent" (as people here tend to put it). The term loses all significance.

The real problem is capital. Nothing else will be solved until that is solved. So I think we should concentrate on the real problem. And the Left/Right metaphor is a distraction from that.

 

[8115]

Don't people just mean, all the parties have the same neo-liberal, blue tinted policies?

 

[butchersapron]

Don't people just mean, all the parties have the same neo-liberal, blue tinted policies?

What people? Do they mean that? Do they even say that? I don't think that they do. Do you hear lots of people saying it? Really?

 

[Orang Utan]

There does seem to be no realistic left wing choice any more, not democratically anyway.
Has the right won?
There doesn't seem to be much opposition from the left to the horrific asset stripping that has been going on to our welfare state, NHS and local government, instead the 'Labour' Party just join in to the race to the bottom.

 

[8115]

What people? Do they mean that? Do they even say that? I don't think that they do. Do you hear lots of people saying it? Really?

People are always saying that. Even here. People say "you can't put a cigarette paper in between the two main parties".

I genuinely hear a lot of people expressing that opinion.

 

[weltweit]

There is right and left still but it seems politicians feel only middle ground parties can win an election.

 

[chilango]

There's a big difference between saying "there's no such thing as Left and Right anymore" and "there's no difference between the main political parties"

 

[phildwyer]

There is right and left still

Is there? How do we define the terms then?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Do they that? I don't think they do. What makes you think that they do? (If, not interested fine)

I hear a lot of people say it. It's essentially a conservative position, trotted out in a very know-all kind of way. Some of the conspiranoid smart arses indulge it, and some people who really are left and should know better.

Who owns and controls the means of production/distribution will be relevant for a very long time to come.

 

[butchersapron]

People are always saying that. Even here. People say "you can't put a cigarette paper in between the two main parties".

I genuinely hear a lot of people expressing that opinion.

No they're not. And that's not saying the same thing at all. There is is a left and there is a right- whether labour is on the left or the tories on the right is neither her nor there to that fact.

 

[phildwyer]

There is is a left and there is a right

Is there? How do we define the terms then?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Phildwyer, do you really think that your posts are so interesting that people want to read them a second time on a different thread? Just changing the words would make them more interesting if you want to keep making the same statement.

 

[butchersapron]

I hear a lot of people say it. It's essentially a conservative position, trotted out in a very know-all kind of way. Some of the conspiranoid smart arses indulge it, and some people who really are left and should know better.

Who owns and controls the means of production/distribution will be relevant for a very long time to come.

That's maybe the people you hang around with. Saying the main parties are the same is not the same as saying the left and the right are the same.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I don't suppose it helped when the 24/7 disinfo operation aka the mainstream press ran around (aided by Labour drones) saying that it was socialist to give scores of billions to capitalist gangsters who had royally fucked up the economy.

 

[butchersapron]

Is there? How do we define the terms then?

No. That's how interested i am.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't suppose it helped when the 24/7 disinfo operation aka the mainstream press ran around (aided by Labour drones) saying that it was socialist to give scores of billions to capitalist gangsters who had royally fucked up the economy.

They said no such thing.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

That's maybe the people you hang around with. Saying the main parties are the same is not the same as saying the left and the right are the same.

No, it's less people I hang around with. It's people I hear on radio, read on social media etc. I agree that saying the main parties are the same is not the same as saying left/right are the same. Absoultely. So obvious as to barely need pointing out.

 

[phildwyer]

Phildwyer, do you really think that your posts are so interesting that people want to read them a second time on a different thread? Just changing the words would make them more interesting if you want to keep making the same statement.

Point taken, but this thread did specifically address the topic. Let me make another point then.

Even as a descriptor, the Left/Right metaphor is useless today. Figures like Dieudonne (to give an example discussed here recently) take ideas from the tradtional Left and from the traditional Right simultaneously.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

They said no such thing.

They absolutely did Butchers. They said the bailouts were the return of socialism / Marxism and blah blah blah.

An utter crock of doublethink shit.

 

[butchersapron]

Classic move for lib-dems - guilty or otherwise.

 

[butchersapron]

They absolutely did Butchers. They said the bailouts were the return of socialism / Marxism and blah blah blah.

An utter crock of doublethink shit.

No they did not. Absolute horseshit.

 

[J Ed]

The thread title is he sort of thing that fascists and some right-wing libertarians say.

 

[phildwyer]

No. That's how interested i am.

I can understand why you claim not to be interested. You've invested a lot in this metaphor.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

No they did not. Absolute horseshit.

Your memory must be shot.

 

[J Ed]

 

[phildwyer]

The thread title is he sort of thing that fascists and some right-wing libertarians say.

Call Comrade Yagoda.

 

[Knotted]

John Major's classless Britain.