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The Trial of Lucy Letby

In terms of clinicians versus management, I would suggest that the marketisation of the NHS performed by Blair and thereafter quite intentionally created the kind of hierarchy whose effects we are seeing now.

If you’re interested in the subject, Nettleton et al. (2008) performed a fascinating study into the effects of neoliberalisation on health professionals. They identified the consequences of an “audit culture” as being a change in the habitus of medicine, with medical knowledge becoming less embodied, and clinicians thus being subordinate to bureaucracy.

 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Sentencing is on Monday, can't really be anything other than whole life. With Couzens I queried why bother doing him for the lesser things after, such as the flashing at McDonald's, a number of people rightly replied that the victims of the smaller things may desire justice too. Here is different, proving the attempted murder to a criminal standard may be too hard considering how long it has taken so far. A civil case would be nailed on to state she done it, will also lay in to the management that allowed her to get away with it.
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I think - particularly in Couzens' case - it was warranted to try him for the subsequently discovered offences, since that gave the victims an opportunity to have their stories heard, even though it makes no difference to the time he would serve.

I'd say in the case of Letby that, if it later emerges that she murdered, or attempted to murder, other children (or, indeed, committed any other offences), those cases should be heard, for the same reason.
 
It’s worth bearing in mind that the jurors put their lives on hold for nearly a year for the sake of this trial. Holding a retrial would subject another twelve people to that level of personal sacrifice. I question whether the need to resolve the hung decisions is worth that sacrifice
 
kabbes said:
It’s worth bearing in mind that the jurors put their lives on hold for nearly a year for the sake of this trial. Holding a retrial would subject another twelve people to that level of personal sacrifice. I question whether the need to resolve the hung decisions is worth that sacrifice
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And not just that, but that year will have been spent in part looking closely at some deeply disturbing and distressing evidence of horrific crimes committed against tiny babies. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge directs that this panel be excused from future jury duty.
 
Hollis said:
Yeah, though as far as I can make out every one of the managers had a nursing or clinical background for at least a few years in their career.
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One of the problems appears to be that many of the managers were from a nursing background, and perceived the consultants' concerns about Letby as being a "doctors vs nurses" thing, and blindly went in to bat for Letby, as a nurse.
 
existentialist said:
And not just that, but that year will have been spent in part looking closely at some deeply disturbing and distressing evidence of horrific crimes committed against tiny babies. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge directs that this panel be excused from future jury duty.
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Idk how people do this at all, I would have vomited then refused to take part.
 
existentialist said:
One of the problems appears to be that many of the managers were from a nursing background, and perceived the consultants' concerns about Letby as being a "doctors vs nurses" thing, and blindly went in to bat for Letby, as a nurse.
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In the infamous case and death of Elaine Bromiley the hierarchy between doctors and nurses was seen as a contributing factor.

"In Elaine’s case, as well as the three doctors, there were three experienced nurses. Although the doctors did not appear to recognise the seriousness of the situation, the nurses did. During the resus, one of the nurses fetched a surgical airway kit and told the consultants that she had brought it in – but there was no response. One of the other nurses called for an ICU bed early on in the resus – when she told the consultants this they made her feel like she was overreacting (and she cancelled it). It transpired that the nursing staff didn’t know how to broach the subject with the doctors."

litfl.com

Lessons from the Bromiley Case

Tessa Davis revisits the heart-breaking death of Elaine Bromiley, and recaps the key teamwork lessons everyone in the medical profession needs to learn from the case.
litfl.com litfl.com
 
existentialist said:
One of the problems appears to be that many of the managers were from a nursing background, and perceived the consultants' concerns about Letby as being a "doctors vs nurses" thing, and blindly went in to bat for Letby, as a nurse.
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Maybe..:)

Personally I also find it also amazing that the reports they commissioned didn't pick up her as a problem. Assuming she wasn't murdering babies, you'd still think they might highlight negligence or training needed..

(ETA: in some ways I'm not remotely amazed...)
 
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Hollis said:
Maybe..:)

Personally I also find it also amazing that the reports they commissioned didn't pick up her as a problem. Assuming she wasn't murdering babies, you'd still think they might highlight negligence or training needed..

(ETA: in some ways I'm not remotely amazed...)
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One of those reports is here if anyone's interested in reading it - http://allcatsrgrey.org.uk/wp/downl...final_-for_dissemination-_08_02_17_1_30pm.pdf
[Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health report, dated November 2016]
 
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Elpenor said:
My gut feeling when I learned of the case was she was innocent and had been fitted up as a scapegoat.

While I can’t claim to understand the medical side of the evidence, it seems to have been reported as fairly damning, and with the notes too I can see why they reached a guilty verdict.
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when Managers in a hospital want to fit someone up as a scapegoat they don;t go to the police, they just go the NMC/ HCPC after having had a fishing trip , as the Police will investigate things rather than take management words
 
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moomoo said:
What would have happened if she’d been found not guilty? Would she have got compensation?
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Bit of an odd question. Firstly, if your found not guilty, unless there’s compelling reasons you’re unlikely to get compensation but secondly, if it was me, I would want it ~ if she was found not guilty we would have to assume she was not guilty but her life would be fucked.
 
Cid said:
She has a whole life tariff right? Might just not be worth it with 3 unanimous and the other permitted majority verdicts. I mean obviously closure is an element of justice, but with the practicalities of a retrial...
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I reckon she will end up with a beverley allitt sentence ~ munchausens (spl) by proxy and broadmoor.
 
kabbes said:
In terms of clinicians versus management, I would suggest that the marketisation of the NHS performed by Blair and thereafter quite intentionally created the kind of hierarchy whose effects we are seeing now.

If you’re interested in the subject, Nettleton et al. (2008) performed a fascinating study into the effects of neoliberalisation on health professionals. They identified the consequences of an “audit culture” as being a change in the habitus of medicine, with medical knowledge becoming less embodied, and clinicians thus being subordinate to bureaucracy.

Click to expand...
I'd say the shifting balance between managers and professionals begins in the 80s with Thatcher's education and health reforms, also social services. It was about actual power shifts, budgets, quasi markets and the rests, but also the idea of manager as change agent, bringing in private sector techniques and challenging the old ways. Managers do though get more power and more tools under Blair, as you say. Full on managerialism allows them to align organisational/market goals with what individual workers do and provides closer and closer monitoring of that work.

Vaguely linked to all that, I'm quite interested in the grievance procedure that Letby won against the consultants (staggering). A nurse winning a grievance against a consultant would be interesting in terms of the old hierarchies. However my guess is that the managers encouraged Letby to take out that grievance as it seemed to happen at the same time she returned to the ward. In essence mangers using the grievance process to discipline the doctors. Not the first time that would have happened, but if true adds to how deeply fucking awful the management behaved. And, if it needs to be said, behaviour that allowed more children to die.
 
Hollis said:
Yeah, though as far as I can make out every one of the managers had a nursing or clinical background for at least a few years in their career.
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While that is slightly unusual in my experience it does bring another dynamic into play: the implicit role reversal regarding traditional hierarchies using the levers provided by market oriented restructuring, revelling in the ability to lord it over drs without giving a fig for patients. The doctors may not have seen this coming due to their traditional mindset of assuming their clinical opinion would prevail. It often doesn’t and many drs don’t know how to deal with that especially as the bureaucrats can use the Damocles Sword of GMC referral which can fuck a career, whether valid or not.
 
Just wondering if any of her colleagues reported her to the care commission whistleblowing hotline and if not why not? Surely they would have had the powers to investigate?
 
Larry O'Hara said:
While that is slightly unusual in my experience it does bring another dynamic into play: the implicit role reversal regarding traditional hierarchies using the levers provided by market oriented restructuring, revelling in the ability to lord it over drs without giving a fig for patients. The doctors may not have seen this coming due to their traditional mindset of assuming their clinical opinion would prevail. It often doesn’t and many drs don’t know how to deal with that especially as the bureaucrats can use the Damocles Sword of GMC referral which can fuck a career, whether valid or not.
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Agree with all of that, though the managers did what they did as managers, with all the mindsets, concerns about reputational damage (ironically)and desperation to control that comes with the role. I don't know how differently things would have turned out if the bosses had previously been consultants. There might have been different dynamics, assumptions, shared background, but they'd still have been doing what managers do. In this case, failing to stop mass murder.
 
My housemate thinks she's innocent because of "all the cover ups". Yes there were cover ups but they were ALL IN LETBY'S FAVOUR! :mad: And way too many babies died on her watch for it to be a coincidence, not to mention her self confession of murder in a private diary she thought no one would ever read. His argument was "No one saw her killing". Yeah, because most murderers get caught in the act, innit...:rolleyes:
 
LeytonCatLady said:
My housemate thinks she's innocent because of "all the cover ups". Yes there were cover ups but they were ALL IN LETBY'S FAVOUR! :mad: And way too many babies died on her watch for it to be a coincidence, not to mention her self confession of murder in a private diary she thought no one would ever read. His argument was "No one saw her killing". Yeah, because most murderers get caught in the act, innit...:rolleyes:
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www.theguardian.com

Mother walked in on nurse Lucy Letby trying to kill baby, court told

Defendant accused of murdering seven babies allegedly said ‘trust me, I’m a nurse’ when interrupted
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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The mother of Baby E believes she caught Lucy in the middle of the abuse. This was the child that bleed profusely.
 
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