The Trial of Lucy Letby

[danny la rouge]

---...?

A brief exchange took place which didn’t need to remain on permanent view.

 

[Pickman's model]

A brief exchange took place which didn’t need to remain on permanent view.

Your fingers say that but your ellipsis something else

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I honestly think that trying to "understand" something this horrific would cause suffering to my mental health.
The woman herself may have no idea why she did what she did.

The management of the hospital is culpable in this situation because they ignored the complaints of numbers of doctors who clearly realised this nurse was a danger. They could have prevented deaths. Every person on that management board should be arrested.

And that’s absolutely fair enough, certainly it’s not something everyone (or indeed most people) need to do. People who aren’t privy to the facts could only do a very rough attempt anyway. But that’s different from stating it’s nothing more complicated than “pure evil” which is what sparked this conversation.

Interesting she’s a premie herself. I wonder how premature, and whether that had any impact on her neurology.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

A brief exchange took place which didn’t need to remain on permanent view.

I was nametagged in it! Mysterious.

 

[Aladdin]

Interesting she’s a premie herself. I wonder how premature, and whether that had any impact on her neurology.

Struggling to understand what you're tryjng to say here...she does indicate that she knew what she was doing was wrong.
What would have impacted her neurology at infant level to the extent that she waited until she was an adult to kill?


I should say...I was a premature baby..by 2 months. So is my brother..a highly competent very caring consultant physician. And my sister also highly competent and caring person.

 

[kabbes]

Struggling to understand what you're tryjng to say here...she does indicate that she knew what she was doing was wrong.
What would have impacted her neurology at infant level to the extent that she waited until she was an adult to kill?


I should say...I was a premature baby..by 2 months. So is my brother..a highly competent very caring consultant physician. And my sister also highly competent and caring person.

If somebody falls over and strikes their head, it can cause brain damage with a whole range of effects, including massive behavioural change. But that doesn’t mean that everybody that falls over undergoes massive behavioural change.

Similarly, being premature can have a very wide range of neurological implications. That doesn’t mean that being premature will have implications, however, let alone any specific one.

 

[Aladdin]

If somebody falls over and strikes their head, it can cause brain damage with a whole range of effects, including massive behavioural change. But that doesn’t mean that everybody that falls over undergoes massive behavioural change.

Similarly, being premature can have a very wide range of neurological implications. That doesn’t mean that being premature will have implications, however, let alone any specific one.

Yes..I know that.. My brain does comprehended what was written...I just do not see the relevance of her own premature birth to the killings.

Sometimes people kill. For no reason other than the power over another life.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Struggling to understand what you're tryjng to say here...she does indicate that she knew what she was doing was wrong.
What would have impacted her neurology at infant level to the extent that she waited until she was an adult to kill?


I should say...I was a premature baby..by 2 months. So is my brother..a highly competent very caring consultant physician. And my sister also highly competent and caring person.

Yep. If she didn't know it was wrong, she wouldn't have tried to cover it up. And it sounds like she went to a mainstream secondary school and was bright enough to do A-levels and go on to uni, and there were no behavioural issues reported about her prior to this. I think the only thing her premature birth had to do with it was she viewed nurses as heroes and wanted to be that herself, but more of a glory thing. Maybe she did genuinely start off wanting to help, but then realised having looked after a dead baby would get her attention and fuss, and became addicted to that. Or just decided no one would suspect her because she was a trusted member of staff and thought she'd get away with it. Who knows.

 

[Aladdin]

LeytonCatLady
Who knows.
She doesn't even know herself why she did what she did.

I feel immense sadness for the families of the babies. There must be other parents wondering if she had any contact with their babies too.
It's dreadful.
I was recently in hospital and was very aware of being on the ball and watching to make sure everything done to me was done right. Even still I had to ask one nurse to sanitize her hands before she put in a line..she had just wiped her nose and was ready to stick in a line. Opening the packet with unsanitised hands.

A dr later on pulled off the line and left it open. A senior nurse came in giving out stink as to why that happened and saying it left the line open and me open to infection.

I've encountered only one nurse that I was afraid of..way back in 2000 when I was in hospital for 3 weeks with serious liver disease. She was in my view a masochist. She repeatedly flushed the line very quickly which caused a lot of pain. Even after being asked to slow down. She even asked if it was hurting as she did it knowing full well it hurt ...

There needs to be some sort of assessment for anyone working in hospitals. To make sure people who do work with vulnerable sick people are not psychopaths

 

[kabbes]

There’s no reason to think that there is a neurological pathology behind this. On the other hand, there’s also no particular evidence that there is a lack of neurological pathology, let alone where any theoretical pathology could have originally arisen. The fact that this particular behaviour only manifested in adulthood isn’t really evidence either way. We (us speculating public) have no idea, frankly.

 

[LDC]

There needs to be some sort of assessment for anyone working in hospitals. To make sure people who do work with vulnerable sick people are not psychopaths

That'll be all the surgeons out of a job then.

But you can't actually be seriously suggesting that?

 

[danny la rouge]

There’s no reason to think that there is a neurological pathology behind this. On the other hand, there’s also no particular evidence that there is a lack of neurological pathology, let alone where any theoretical pathology could have originally arisen. The fact that this particular behaviour only manifested in adulthood isn’t really evidence either way. We (us speculating public) have no idea, frankly.

Exactly. And there’s a good chance nobody will ever really know, including any psychiatrists who may work with Letby in future. Although of course there is a strong desire to know. I want to know. Ideally I want society to be able to treat people before they get to this stage, if that’s at all ever going to be possible.

One thing’s for sure, some half-arsed counsellor who has never even met her hasn’t a fucking clue.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

LeytonCatLady
Who knows.
She doesn't even know herself why she did what she did.

I feel immense sadness for the families of the babies. There must be other parents wondering if she had any contact with their babies too.
It's dreadful.
I was recently in hospital and was very aware of being on the ball and watching to make sure everything done to me was done right. Even still I had to ask one nurse to sanitize her hands before she put in a line..she had just wiped her nose and was ready to stick in a line. Opening the packet with unsanitised hands.

A dr later on pulled off the line and left it open. A senior nurse came in giving out stink as to why that happened and saying it left the line open and me open to infection.

I've encountered only one nurse that I was afraid of..way back in 2000 when I was in hospital for 3 weeks with serious liver disease. She was in my view a masochist. She repeatedly flushed the line very quickly which caused a lot of pain. Even after being asked to slow down. She even asked if it was hurting as she did it knowing full well it hurt ...

There needs to be some sort of assessment for anyone working in hospitals. To make sure people who do work with vulnerable sick people are not psychopaths

Sorry to hear of your hospital experiences. I agree, they need to do better when recruiting.

 

[nino_savatte]

Letby has been described as 'normal' and, therefore, how could someone so apparently 'normal' be a baby-killer? Of course, that begs the question: what is normal?

This is from Mic Wright.
Movies have taught us to expect the ‘baddie’ to break near the end of the story; we want a monologue that explains the plans and motivations, that caps off some understanding of what was working behind the mask. But reality usually denies us the moment when Verbal Kint’s limp evaporates and the viewer, via the camera’s unblinking and unacknowledged eye, realises he and the monstrous and near-mythical Keyser Söze are one and the same. If a real James Bond came face to face with Blofeld, the latter would just shoot the spy. No explanatory monologuing.
The greatest trick...

 

[Agent Sparrow]

There’s no reason to think that there is a neurological pathology behind this. On the other hand, there’s also no particular evidence that there is a lack of neurological pathology, let alone where any theoretical pathology could have originally arisen. The fact that this particular behaviour only manifested in adulthood isn’t really evidence either way. We (us speculating public) have no idea, frankly.

Yes, 100% this.

There needs to be some sort of assessment for anyone working in hospitals. To make sure people who do work with vulnerable sick people are not psychopaths

Problem is that clever psychopaths who are knowledgeable about the neurotype can easily fake responses. Plus if we do see psychopathy as a neurotype, there will be many out there who don’t pose a threat to others. Can explain more about that later if needed.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Ah yes we should condemn a little more and understand a little less. Never had you down as a majorite

There are not many things where I'd be willing to say that's just evil, that person needs to be away from everyone else forever. But systematic murder of newborn infants is one of those things.

It's in my nature to try and understand why people do things, and a criminal justice system that largely ignores this question is a travesty and a waste. But with this kind of case, it's just a question of harm reduction. It's bad wiring on a level that can't be fixed. I don't think retribution serves any purpose, don't know if punishment would even register with these people in the way we understand it, but they do need to be away from everyone else forever.

Do you think there is anything we could learn from picking apart Letby's brain that could stop anyone else from turning out like her in future? I don't. Even making changes to how hospitals are run based on this one appalling but extremely rare case risks doing more harm than good. It could just add another layer of box-ticking and arse-covering.

 

[Sasaferrato]

"Evil" is just a convenient way to label something which is beyond our comprehension.

There is something in that I think. The concept of 'evil' is a drag forward from more religious times, and is now used, as you say, as shorthand for inexplicable aberrant behaviour.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are not many things where I'd be willing to say that's just evil, that person needs to be away from everyone else forever. But systematic murder of newborn infants is one of those things.

It's in my nature to try and understand why people do things, and a criminal justice system that largely ignores this question is a travesty and a waste. But with this kind of case, it's just a question of harm reduction. It's bad wiring on a level that can't be fixed. I don't think retribution serves any purpose, don't know if punishment would even register with these people in the way we understand it, but they do need to be away from everyone else forever.

Do you think there is anything we could learn from picking apart Letby's brain that could stop anyone else from turning out like her in future? I don't. Even making changes to how hospitals are run based on this one appalling but extremely rare case risks doing more harm than good. It could just add another layer of box-ticking and arse-covering.

picking apart letby's brain now shows how she is now, not about the events which led us to this unhappy trial

 

[InArduisFouette]

these people tend to find a way to kill themselves

and Prison Healthcare and the local hospitals will do their Best to save life and limb

" ask no questions about what they've done, give no information about yourself other than your first name and keep your badge covered at all times " - the quick and dirty briefing i recieved when working on AAU when about to get my first 'Monster Mansion ' resident as an inpatient

 

[InArduisFouette]

I think a whole life tariff at 33 - so many years knowing not only every fellow prisoner but more importantly every prison officer wishes you immense harm - is a worse punishment than a quick death. And in this case is well deserved.

not sure why you think Prison staff and other HCPs wish Harm on Ms Letby, she needs plenty of time to reflect on your actions...

 

[frogwoman]

Fred west used to bury people alive, with tubes in their mouths to keep them breathing, but let's not call him evil. Let's find out why he done it...

How about we call him evil and find out why he done it, because no "reasons", other than psychosis, can possible flatten his act into anything other than evil.

I don't agree with the IWCA on that much but they had a saying about 'understand a little more and condemn a little more' iirc which is very true in this case

 

[InArduisFouette]

Hindley was the other but she’s now deceased. Not sure why Allitt was never handed one.

becasue Allitt is on an Indefinite Hospital order IIRC rather than a Prison Sentenece

 

[InArduisFouette]

Whole life orders were brought in in 1983, so Hindley didn't get one of those. In effect she did have one, though. Life sentences come with minimums rather than maximums.

even if released a lifer can be recalled for farting in the wrong direction

 

[scalyboy]

Has any nurse or doctor convicted killer ever admitted guilt, or offered an explanation?
I can only think of Beverley Allitt, Benjamin Green and Harold Shipman (I’m aware there are others); as far as I know, none of these three ever did admit their culpability. Green spoke of a 'jinx' on him as if the deaths were accidental. Shipman maintained his innocence...

 

[danny la rouge]

Has any nurse or doctor convicted killer ever admitted guilt, or offered an explanation?

Apparently Allitt admitted guilt as part of a failed application to a psychiatric hospital.

 

[Sasaferrato]

and Prison Healthcare and the local hospitals will do their Best to save life and limb

" ask no questions about what they've done, give no information about yourself other than your first name and keep your badge covered at all times " - the quick and dirty briefing i recieved when working on AAU when about to get my first 'Monster Mansion ' resident as an inpatient

On a complete and utter tangent, when I read your user name, I expect the last word to be 'Fidelis'.

 

[InArduisFouette]

On a complete and utter tangent, when I read your user name, I expect the last word to be 'Fidelis'.

View attachment 388281

well spotted

yes that was a capbadge i have worn in the past

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Even making changes to how hospitals are run based on this one appalling but extremely rare case risks doing more harm than good. It could just add another layer of box-ticking and arse-covering.

That's a good point.

 

[Pingety Pong]

Has any nurse or doctor convicted killer ever admitted guilt, or offered an explanation?
I can only think of Beverley Allitt, Benjamin Green and Harold Shipman (I’m aware there are others); as far as I know, none of these three ever did admit their culpability. Green spoke of a 'jinx' on him as if the deaths were accidental. Shipman maintained his innocence...

There was this German nurse who might have killed over 300 patients. He later admitted to many of the murders and claimed it gave him a buzz to resuscitate them and to show off his skills in front of his colleagues.
Niels Högel - Wikipedia

Weirdly, he was called as a witness last year in a trial against the former hospital bosses but they all ended up being acquitted.

 

[bcuster]

This one received a much lighter sentence:

Former respiratory therapist in Missouri sentenced in connection with patient deaths

A former Missouri respiratory therapist who pleaded guilty in the deaths of two hospital patients has been sentenced to 18 years in prison. Jennifer Hall was initially charged with two counts of first-degree murder but pleaded guilty in April to reduced first-degree involuntary manslaughter...

www.yahoo.com