The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Completely agree with the sentiments in your last paragraph .However I'm not for state induced suicide or for those employed in our prisons encouraging suicide.
The Trial of Lucy Letby
- Thread starter Magnus McGinty
- Start date
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Yeah, I’ve considered that if she’s been in some form of extreme denial then there’s a possibility that if that breaks down she’ll end up on a psychiatric section. Or maybe that’s me projecting as I don’t see how anyone could do something so horrific and live with themselves/not lose touch with reality.
It also wouldn’t be a cop out - psychiatric secure units aren’t great places and whilst this won’t apply to a life sentence, criminal MH sections can lead to periods of incarceration that way outstretch original sentences.
Most whole life punters end up in the secure 'hospitals' at some point. To do something so bad as to get that tariff you have to be a bit out there, throw in the stress that a whole life tariff places on them and it's no surprise that they can go to pot. As you rightly state, Broadmoor and Rampton are no picnics, regular nicks are generally nicer places to be.
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LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
So many lives ruined. Just horrible.This makes for a hard read.
What the babies' parents told Lucy Letby as she was sentenced
The dad of two murdered boys says "it destroyed me", and a mum says she relives an attack "every day".www.bbc.co.uk
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
When I first moved to London I worked in a medium secure unit for a year and a half. It taught me a) they really are quite grim places, b) whilst you can never excuse their offences, so many had horrific histories themselves, c) it’s quite amazing how one can find space to have present day empathy with people who have done terrible things, d) however, some had done relatively little to warrant such long periods inside on ever extended sections
, and e) if on the street you bump into an absconder at 3am and call it into the ward, your life choices will be questioned!
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Our morality...priceless.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
That’s loopy!
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
I may be being slow but what does e) mean? Could you expand?When I first moved to London I worked in a medium secure unit for a year and a half. It taught me a) they really are quite grim places, b) whilst you can never excuse their offences, so many had horrific histories themselves, c) it’s quite amazing how one can find space to have present day empathy with people who have done terrible things, d) however, some had done relatively little to warrant such long periods inside on ever extended sections
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Well I can’t really say much more in the way of details because of confidentiality but I’ll rephrase. Someone hadn’t returned from leave on the unit I worked on, I bumped into them when I was out with friends (they greeted me very warmly even though I said I’d have to report it!), I rang up the unit to tell them and then felt very judged by a colleague for being out in the early hours of the morning myself!
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
Thanks. Nothing wrong with being an early riser. I thought all productive people are out and about by 3am
Allows us to get to the gym on time.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
They may be, not sure I’d class myself as one thoughThanks. Nothing wrong with being an early riser. I thought all productive people are out and about at 3am
People go out clubbing shocker.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Some of the staff were very socially conservative. Which possibly wasn’t the best match for a patient group who often took a lot of drugs in their outside lives.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Although I agree with this, it seems that the high-profile case of that bloke who did 17 years for a rape he didn't commit has prompted a change in the rules about clawing back compensation from those wrongfully convicted. But that was more like a light being shone on something that was clearly and obviously wrong, but which most people didn't know about.
seeformiles
Lost in the wood
When traditionally in such cases, women are more likely to be seen as more mad than bad, I’m surprised she got a regular prison sentence rather than an indefinite stay in Broadmoor.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
These days, all violent criminals are interviewed by a psychiatrist to see if they're insane or not. She's a sociopath but not mad. Course there's loads of idiots on Twitter who are convinced she didn't do it because she doesn't "look" like a murderer, although they can never answer what a murderer does look like!
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
"Such cases"? Thankfully, cases of this sort are vanishingly rare. And the two other women in the country with whole life tariffs are in regular prisons.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Has she had that diagnosis? Think it's not called that anymore either, it's 'antisocial personality disorder' or something like that.
bimble
floofy
Havent been following in detail but it's interesting that the defence case didn't (i think) even try for the mad not bad angle?
Her lawyer only attempted to argue not guilty which seems an odd choice.
Not suggetsing she'd have been better off in the mad incarceration than the bad one just a bit curious how come the case proceeded in that way.
Her lawyer only attempted to argue not guilty which seems an odd choice.
Not suggetsing she'd have been better off in the mad incarceration than the bad one just a bit curious how come the case proceeded in that way.
savoloysam
Pigman's pigman's ha ha charade you are..
Sociopaths have more of a tendency to antisocial behaviour whereas "psychopaths" tend to be more sadistic but not all psychopaths are evil. Some of them are very successful people.
Then there's the dark triad (look it up)
However tbh in this case I would just class her as pure evil. People said earlier they think that's too simple but to me it's the easiest explanation, simple or not.
That picture of her smiling while holding baby clothes is enough for me.
maomao
普費斯
If she's told her lawyer she didn't do it and won't admit to it then he is to some extent bound by that. He can't get up and tell everyone she's lying but she's mental.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Not directly AFAIK, but doctors at Loughborough University believe she had Munchausen by Proxy, which is viewed as a form of personality disorder/sociopathic behaviour. She clearly lacked empathy for the babies and didn't see them as people. I didn't know that about the "sociopath" label falling out of usage though, so cheers for the heads-up.
Lucy Letby motivated by pathological desire for attention, expert says
A criminologist believes there are ‘clear similarities’ with her crimes and historic cases of killer nurses
www.standard.co.uk
The sociopathic behavior of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy | Lovefraud | Escape sociopaths - narcissists in relationships
Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSBP) is a mental health problem in which caregivers make up or cause illness or injury in a person who is under their care.
lovefraud.com
bimble
floofy
is that how it works, she pleads not guilty so thats it lawyer has to argue that and not anything else? Makes sense, up to a point.
bimble
floofy
what does this even mean though? she is "pure evil" : are you religious?
maomao
普費斯
If the client admits to their lawyer that they are guilty and still insists on pleasing not guilty then there are certain arguments, such as blaming someone else, that the lawyer is professionally not supposed to make.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Given the rates of undiagnosed/untreated prisoners I don’t think the psychiatrists have that sensitive a threshold!
Though I’m trying not to speculate on Lucy as I’ve not seen any reports - presumably it’s information that is only shared if relevant to the plea. Any pathology may fall under the area of “personality disorder” (often a problematic concept in itself) but that also doesn’t rule out past trauma or a degree of delusional thought.
Yeah I think sociopath is archaic terminology but the diagnosis maps broadly on to ASPD. Psychopath is still used iirc but is potentially more a neurotype. The only suggested diagnosis I’ve seen for her in the press is Munchausen's by proxy and I thought that was also a no longer used term. In parents/guardians it’s now called Fabricated Induced Illness (FII) but that doesn’t seem to entirely fit.
savoloysam
Pigman's pigman's ha ha charade you are..
That she has no redeeming characteristics and the only thing in life that gave her any satisfaction was her crimes.
We all like to say there's good and bad in everyone. Although I obviously don't know her I don't see her having any good or redeeming characteristics. She even seemed not only to get a thrill from the parents grief, she actively sort it out online.
How she became that way I don't know but I only see evil and malice here.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
It’s interesting the very different ways people are trying to make sense of it/her/the horror of what she’s done.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
If we cannot use "evil" in the context of people like Fred west and the like, then we cannot use it at all. I think I'd prefer to live In a world where "evil" is a term that can be used rather than not. It might not describe her whole personality, but yes killing babies is an act of evil. An evil act.
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