The Scottish independence referendum polling thread

[DairyQueen]

Get to fuck.

Get a grip mate, these socialist parties are standing side by side with Deutsche Bank, the Tories, and the Telegraph. What do they offer? A genuine mass movement demanding social equity or maybe a dozen fusty old marxists handing out leaflets that everyone except a handful of people either bin or completely ignore? I really don't mind if they just waited until after the referendum to offer some solidarity, but to try and convince a few people to vote against independence is just stupid, the chunk of voters in Scotland that might vote for them simply don't agree with them, their position is neither revolutionary nor sensible.

 

[butchersapron]

Get a grip mate, these 'socialist' parties are standing side by side with Deutsche Bank, the Tories, and the Telegraph. What do they offer? A genuine mass movement demanding social equity or a bunch of fusty old marxists handing out leaflets that everyone except a handful of people either bin or completely ignore? I really don't mind if they just waited until after the referendum to offer some solidarity, but to try and convince a few people to vote against independence is just stupid, the chunk of voters in Scotland that might vote for them simply don't agree with them, their position is neither revolutionary nor sensible.

Pathetic - they're irrelevant to the vote, but if you play that game you end up with Murdoch and Souter on your side. Don't sell it as anti-capitalist, don't sell it as freedom, as anti-imperialism. And you won't get painted as standing side by side with the above and other big capitalists.

 

[DairyQueen]

But this is the problem with the left. We have six small socialist parties, who all claim 'nationalism' is irrelevant. Yet some tiny parties (and more importantly a few activists) opted to take an opposing side in the referendum. The fact remains the yes campaign is a genuine mass movement, where the left has played a key role. The No campaign is more-or-less the opposite.

 

[butchersapron]

But this is the problem with the left. We have six small socialist parties, who all claim 'nationalism' is irrelevant. Yet some tiny parties (and more importantly a few activists) opted to take an opposing side in the referendum. The fact remains the yes campaign is a genuine mass movement, where the left has played a key role. The No campaign is more-or-less the opposite.

Meaningless waffle - no connection to the posts you're replying to. An opposing side.

You want to tell people they're lining up with capital then, ok, you're lining up with Murdoch and Souter. Pathetic game to play that devalues all the work that radical YES campaigners has done by turning it into a daft whose on your side game which cuts out everyone else. By far your worst contribution on the issue.

 

[ferrelhadley]

I googled Robert the Bruce and I got this - but at least I know what shinty is now !

 

[Liveist]

Surprised this hasn't been adopted by the pro-independent supporters as their campaign anthem:

 

[poului]

I'm curious about the assertions made by some that Labour's pro-union stance goes against what they used to stand for. Does everyone agree? Would the likes of Clement Attlee or Aneurin Bevan have definitely supported Scottish independence from the union at this time?

 

[butchersapron]

I'm curious about the assertions made by some that Labour's pro-union stance goes against what they used to stand for. Does everyone agree? Would the likes of Clement Attlee or Aneurin Bevan have definitely supported Scottish independence from the union at this time?

The issue might appear under the guise of independence, but it's pretty transparently about a party that has lost/sold it's social roots and lost any organic connection with the working class. A properly embedded party could either support or oppose independence.

 

[poului]

The issue might appear under the guise of independence, but it's pretty transparently about a party that has lost/sold it's social roots and lost any organic connection with the working class. A properly embedded party could either support or oppose independence.

I felt as much. Ultimately a yes vote to me confirms that a significant portion of Labour's voting base has lost faith in it's party to such an extent that it's given up hope on a union that once made real and progressive achievements. It's nothing to feel cheery about IMO.

 

[DairyQueen]

I agree with that. I think the UK is very undemocratic and probably becoming a bit autocratic (over the last thirty years or so). Labour has played a massive role in that by helping neuter apolitical working-class institutions (including itself!).

So most people that now contribute to intellectual and political life are from the same region (South East) (or, failing that, political ideology) and social class (middle/upper class). I am not sure Attlee (maybe Bevan) had any real commitment to democracy, but would probably have been shocked how Labour have contributed to the destruction of working-class institutions which has meant that an entire strata of people have been disenfranchised.

 

[poului]

I agree with that. I think the UK is very undemocratic and probably becoming a bit autocratic (over the last thirty years or so). Labour has played a massive role in that by helping neuter apolitical working-class institutions (including itself!).

So most people that now contribute to intellectual and political life are from the same region (South East) (or, failing that, political ideology) and social class (middle/upper class). I am not sure Attlee (maybe Bevan) had any real commitment to democracy, but would probably have been shocked how Labour have contributed to the destruction of working-class institutions which has meant that an entire strata of people have been disenfranchised.

Whilst I also agree, I don't feel comfortable with the phrasing of the political class as being fundamentally "southern", given how many people in London and south east live teetering on or below the poverty line and how many elected MPs are vetted representatives who can come from all over. Geography is not the driving force of the problem. I think phrasing it like that carries a risk that some may get the wrong idea.

 

[bouncer_the_dog]

If we click other can it count as 'Nuke the site from orbit' ?

 

[DairyQueen]

Whilst I also agree, I don't feel comfortable with the phrasing of the political class as being fundamentally "southern", given how many people in London and south east live teetering on or below the poverty line and how many elected MPs are vetted representatives who can come from all over. Geography is not the driving force of the problem. I think phrasing it like that carries a risk that some may get the wrong idea.

I suppose it kind of goes without saying, but there is still a problem with the amount resources being concentrated there. This is not so much about where you are born but where you work, are educated, and even where you have meetings to discuss anything remotely important. Of course there are poor that live there, but they can't affect anything and they are totally invisible like everyone else.

 

[Riklet]

I reckon yes will pip it. The No campaign has played a firm hand and a good intimidation campaign last minute. But overall i reckon there's still more movement towards Yes, lots of it from outside of the official campaign.

51 or 52% Yes.

 

[treelover]

According to an article in the Guardian Indyref update, in some working class areas, 80% say they will be voting yes, but will they vote? I remember plenty of local campaigns where people up against it would say they were voting for us, example was socialist alliance, then just didn't vote. But is this election a game changer, I do remember a campaign in Wallasey where Lol Duffey was standing against Linda Chalker in a G/E and thousands of people who had never voted came to vote for Lol, coming upto us and saying that, because the campaign had been so energetic, etc.

 

[treelover]

Betfair Sportsbook say they are so confident of referendum outcome they are paying out on No bets 3 days early.

from a tweet by Wintour, is this correct?

 

[The Boy]

from a tweet by Wintour, is this correct?

just checked their website and they still have a book open on Yes/No.

 

[DotCommunist]

aparently they've paid of one 6 figure bet in a move not at all designed to get publicity

 

[The Boy]

aparently they've paid of one 6 figure bet in a move not at all designed to get publicity

Sounds more likely. Never amazes me how cheap it is for the bookies to get publicity. Makes you wonder why they bother paying for any actual adverts*.

*obviously it doesn't. It's a figure of speech.

 

[Favelado]

Ray Winstone's disembodied head offering referundum accumulators on Scotland-Catalonia.

 

[quiquaquo]

According to an article in the Guardian Indyref update, in some working class areas, 80% say they will be voting yes, but will they vote? I remember plenty of local campaigns where people up against it would say they were voting for us, example was socialist alliance, then just didn't vote. But is this election a game changer, I do remember a campaign in Wallasey where Lol Duffey was standing against Linda Chalker in a G/E and thousands of people who had never voted came to vote for Lol, coming upto us and saying that, because the campaign had been so energetic, etc.

Then there's the weather which looks dry for polling day. Nice bit of cloud seeding over Glasgow would be cheap at the price for the Tories.

 

[Celyn]

According to an article in the Guardian Indyref update, in some working class areas, 80% say they will be voting yes, but will they vote? ...

It's looking good in Glasgow Shettleston, for one example. It's a pretty deprived area, and it's usually a very safe "Labour" place, but the "Yes" people find there are people coming into the shop off the street, wanting badges, posters etc. Also, "Yes" reckons that, of people signed up to help on polling day, a significant number have cars and can help provide transport for elderly, mobility-impaired etc.

(Mind you, with my cynical hat on, wouldn't it be a great idea just to demand all posters/badges etc from the people you don't want to vote for, so as to grab them and bin them and hamper their campaign?. Oh, I wish I didn't have a cynical hat/head! )

That's not much use to you, treelover, sorry, being not much real information, but as a tiny snapshot, it's the best I can do.

 

[Celyn]

According to an article in the Guardian Indyref update, in some working class areas, 80% say they will be voting yes, but will they vote?..

Thinking again - it's not easy for me to check as computer is being bloody weird in terms of opening some links and not others, but that 80% figure is likely from Radical Independence, who have been concentrating on those not previously registered, or not much given to voting, so -yes- there might be a bit of not bothering to vote on the actual day.

OTOH, surely anybody who has only recently got motivated to register to vote will also be motivated to make use of vote? Oh shit, I wish I knew what to think. (Was great seeing photos of people actually queueing up to register to vote - bloody remarkable).

 

[phildwyer]

According to an article in the Guardian Indyref update, in some working class areas, 80% say they will be voting yes, but will they vote?

Yes they will. Landslide....

 

[ddraig]

According to an article in the Guardian Indyref update, in some working class areas, 80% say they will be voting yes, but will they vote? I remember plenty of local campaigns where people up against it would say they were voting for us, example was socialist alliance, then just didn't vote. But is this election a game changer, I do remember a campaign in Wallasey where Lol Duffey was standing against Linda Chalker in a G/E and thousands of people who had never voted came to vote for Lol, coming upto us and saying that, because the campaign had been so energetic, etc.

from a tweet by Wintour, is this correct?

where are the links treelover ??

 

[poului]

Breakdown of eight Scottish subcultures and their attitudes to independence.

http://quarterly.demos.co.uk/article/issue-3/516/

 

[Dillinger4]

Why didn't I become a Psephologist? I love this stuff.

 

[treelover]

It's looking good in Glasgow Shettleston, for one example. It's a pretty deprived area, and it's usually a very safe "Labour" place, but the "Yes" people find there are people coming into the shop off the street, wanting badges, posters etc. Also, "Yes" reckons that, of people signed up to help on polling day, a significant number have cars and can help provide transport for elderly, mobility-impaired etc.

(Mind you, with my cynical hat on, wouldn't it be a great idea just to demand all posters/badges etc from the people you don't want to vote for, so as to grab them and bin them and hamper their campaign?. Oh, I wish I didn't have a cynical hat/head! )

That's not much use to you, treelover, sorry, being not much real information, but as a tiny snapshot, it's the best I can do.

These is exactly what happened in the GE when Lol Duffy stood in Wallasey against Linda Chalker, it was incredible to see hundreds of people using their cars, etc to mobile the votes, etc, the authorities were really rattled at the levels of W/C participation.

 

[treelover]

where are the links treelover ??

it was the guardian indyref update, its updates every few minutes,

 

[treelover]

Ed Miliband was forced to abandon a walkabout in Edinburgh after he became caught in a crush of media and pro-independence protesters, who drowned out his interviews with shouts of "fucking liar" and "serial murderer".
The Labour leader became the latest politician to be abused and harangued as news of his unannounced visit to meet shop workers and voters at the St James shopping centre in central Edinburgh leaked in advance.
A small group of yes activists ran after reporters and TV crews who had gathered outside the centre as they were ushered inside to watch Miliband's walkabout, leading to chaotic scenes.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...rer-scottish-independence-edinburgh-walkabout

Robust politics up there...