The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[dylans]

Fair enough. I can respect that viewpoint, but does it stand up to a little scrutiny?

Perhaps you could enlighten us how, exactly, we could have gotten from the situation in the mid 90's (Britain's airports & motorways closed often; a 'ring of steel around the city of London; Manchester city centre destroyed etc etc) to where we are now - without the input of Adams & Co. to break the impasse

What you think of Gerry Adams or what you think he might have been responsible for is not really the issue here. Like I said in the OP, Adams & the rest of the leadership could have just left as many had done before them. I'm sure gerry could have made a cleaned up on the after dinner circuit in the US - particularly if he was a 'man who had rejected vbiolence'.

To stay, adopt a pretty much 'heretic' strategy and to shift the Republican movement from the entrenched militarist position that was completely dominant at that time, to where it is now, is nothing short of remarkable. If you told IRA Volunteers at the time how things would pan out, they simply would not have believed you and laughed in your face... and would then have pointed their rifles in your direction.

Where is the united Ireland so many died fighting for? He and Sinn Fein betrayed the aspirations of the entire republican movement and negotiated what amounts to a surrender to the British state. If I was an Irish republican I would be asking the question "what was it all for?

 

[LLETSA]

yeah, I'm really not gonna be saying thanks to someone who was involved in any sort of bombing campaign for stopping the bombing campaign. It's sort of like expecting the Iraqis to thank Tony Blair for beginning the withdrawl of British troops from...that city they were in. Ie completely fuckwitted.

This, however, takes nothing away from the point being made. Things will always happen because of the actions of people of whom many, or even most, do not approve for one reason or another. The world is by and large run by the worst kind of people (which is not necessarily a judgement on Adams and co.) There is no reason to think that there will ever be circumstances under which this will change.

It's the way it is, suckers.

 

[LLETSA]

Where is the united Ireland so many died fighting for? He and Sinn Fein betrayed the aspirations of the entire republican movement and negotiated what amounts to a surrender to the British state. If I was an Irish republican I would be asking the question "what was it all for?

Perhaps- but you're not.

 

[LiamO]

Where is the united Ireland so many died fighting for? He and Sinn Fein betrayed the aspirations of the entire republican movement and negotiated what amounts to a surrender to the British state. If I was an Irish republican I would be asking the question "what was it all for?

Yes. Many do feel disillusioned. However that is a seperate debate.

Please note:

1. If you are replying to this it would be helpful if you could try to answer the points above, rather than ranting and raving about 'whataboutery'.

perhaps I should have specifically included "whadiffery" as well. In fact I will amend the OP.

 

[dylans]

Perhaps- but you're not.

I'm not Palestinian either but I still ask questions about the betrayal of Palestinian aspirations by the Abbas and the PA.

 

[LLETSA]

I'm not Palestinian either but I still ask questions about the betrayal of Palestinian aspirations by the Abbas and the PA.

Ask away. Makes no difference. At all.

 

[dylans]

Yes. Many do feel disillusioned. However that is a seperate debate.

The question was do British people owe Adams a debt of thanks? well I'm a Brit who supported as legitimate the demand for a united Ireland. So in answer to your question, I see no reason why I should feel gratitude to Adams for betraying a cause I have supported for most of my life. Of course you are right. Your question wasn't aimed at people like me. It is based on an assumption that all Brits only saw the armed struggle in terms of "bombs in cities" and not in terms of a legitimate democratic national struggle. Your assumption therefore is questionable

 

[dylans]

Ask away. Makes no difference. At all.

Then we should never be involved in solidarity campaigns around any international issue. As a veteran of the anti apartheid campaign I find that position cynical in the extreme. The assumption that we, who are not directly involved in an issue, should take no political view of any international issue because "it makes no difference.

 

[LLETSA]

The question was do British people owe Adams a debt of thanks? well I'm a Brit who supported as legitimate the demand for a united Ireland. So in answer to your question, I see no reason why I should feel gratitude to Adams for betraying a cause I have supported for most of my life. Of course you are right. Your question wasn't aimed at people like me. It is based on an assumption that all Brits only saw the armed struggle in terms of "bombs in cities" and not in terms of a legitimate democratic national struggle. Your assumption therefore is questionable

The thing is that when it comes to politics there will always be people whose main role is to feel betrayed. Stalin betrayed the Russian revolution. Labour betrayed the British working class. The SWP betrayed the anti-globalisation movement. It's probably a psychological condition.

 

[LLETSA]

Then we should never be involved in solidarity campaigns around any international issue. As a veteran of the anti apartheid campaign I find that position cynical in the extreme. The assumption that we, who are not directly involved in an issue, should take no political view of any international issue because "it makes no difference.

We can take a view on whatever we choose. But when it's taken from afar it does make no difference.

 

[Santino]

Perhaps you could enlighten us how, exactly, we could have gotten from the situation in the mid 90's (Britain's airports & motorways closed often; a 'ring of steel around the city of London; Manchester city centre destroyed etc etc) to where we are now - without the input of Adams & Co. to break the impasse

Is it fair to paraphrase this as 'How would the strategy of bombing supported and often run by Gerry Adams have ended if it were not for the actions of Gerry Adams?'

 

[LLETSA]

Is it fair to paraphrase this as 'How would the strategy of bombing supported and often run by Gerry Adams have ended if it were not for the actions of Gerry Adams?'

In the case of most people in Britain it's probably a case of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

 

[dylans]

We can take a view on whatever we choose. But when it's taken from afar it does make no difference.

Why did Apartheid fall? Many reasons perhaps but instrumental in its fall was INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY. It can make a huge difference even if cynics like yourself refuse to recognise it.

 

[The Octagon]

Seems a bit like thanking a rapist for using lube after the 20th assault.

I'll pass thanks.

 

[LiamO]

Is it fair to paraphrase this as 'How would the strategy of bombing supported and often run by Gerry Adams have ended if it were not for the actions of Gerry Adams?'

are you suggesting that the IRA was Adam's personal plaything? And that he could change it's direction on a whim because of some personal epiphany?

You are perfectly entitled to suggest this, but it is difficult to how an intelligent and politically aware person could really believe this is actually the case.

 

[LLETSA]

Why did Apartheid fall? Many reasons perhaps but instrumental in its fall was INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY. It can make a huge difference even if cynics like yourself refuse to recognise it.

It did. But the ANC do want they want, regardless of the views of those who supported them. And they will continue to do so.

 

[LiamO]

Seems a bit like thanking a rapist for using lube after the 20th assault.

I'll pass thanks.

No. It doesn't. Nor is this an Irish Politics 101 thread. feel free to start one.

But you are very welcome.

 

[LLETSA]

Seems a bit like thanking a rapist for using lube after the 20th assault.

I'll pass thanks.

This is just the thing-people take this kind of view but happily vote for those who start wars that waste the lives of millions-or at least uphold the system that guarantees such wars.

 

[past caring]

Where is the united Ireland so many died fighting for? He and Sinn Fein betrayed the aspirations of the entire republican movement and negotiated what amounts to a surrender to the British state. If I was an Irish republican I would be asking the question "what was it all for?

I'm not Palestinian either but I still ask questions about the betrayal of Palestinian aspirations by the Abbas and the PA.

You can take the man out of Workers Power, but you can't take the Workers Power out of the man.

 

[8den]

It's actually a fair point without Addams the IRA campaign of violence would continue, and the Mortar attacks on Heathrow cost billions.

In the IRAs campaign of taking to the mainland and inflicting serious financial damage on the UK was brilliant and a cost effective way to cost the exchequer Billions.

but, Sorry LiamO, qhich in the way that you'd couldn't discuss Thatchers' "successes" without having her attacks in civil liberties thrown back at you.

Addams is standing for election in the south, and you can't take away from the fact that he lead a team of killers around Belfast murdering "touts"

 

[LiamO]

Incidentally who's Gerry "Admas"?

Addams is standing for election in the south

You are essentially putting forward the same (in the context of this thread) irrelevent argument that you were last night. Just because you have managed to state your 'strawman' case more politely (although that is a welcome development) does not make it any less driven by your emotional irrationality and your apparent visceral hatred of Gerry Adams.

(I say 'apparent' because he just seems to be the person onto which you are currently projecting your volcanic personal anger at the world and, most likely, yourself.).

 

[Random]

It is an interesting question about how Adams managed to turn the IRA/SF in such a different direction. In his autobiography MacStiophan described Adams as an up and coming radical natioalist. My guess is that this was another example of leftists/radicals within an movement staking out the left field of the movement, defining what was 'radical' and then using that radical enthusiasm and momentum to sew up all of the levers of power in the organisation - holing on to the youth and grassroots and with no pesky enemies on the left.

 

[8den]

You are essentially putting forward the same (in the context of this thread) irrelevent argument that you were last night. Just because you have managed to state your 'strawman' case more politely (although that is a welcome development) does not make it any less driven by your emotional irrationality and your apparent visceral hatred of Gerry Adams.

It's visceral hatred for a man who ordered the killing of a Mother of Ten. And the denied he was ever in the IRA

(I say 'apparent' because he just seems to be the person onto which you are currently projecting your volcanic personal anger at the world - and, most likely, yourself.).

Save the cod psychology for own weird self

 

[LiamO]

It's visceral hatred for a man who ordered the killing of a Mother of Ten. And the denied he was ever in the IRA


Save the cod psychology for own weird self

This is aimed at British posters...






Please note:

1. If you are replying to this it might be helpful if you could try to answer the points above, rather than ranting and raving about 'whataboutery' and 'whaddiffery'.

yawn.

 

[LiamO]

It is an interesting question about how Adams managed to turn the IRA/SF in such a different direction. In his autobiography MacStiophan described Adams as an up and coming radical natioalist. My guess is that this was another example of leftists/radicals within an movement staking out the left field of the movement, defining what was 'radical' and then using that radical enthusiasm and momentum to sew up all of the levers of power in the organisation - holing on to the youth and grassroots and with no pesky enemies on the left.

That's a really interesting post Random and I would definitely be interested in discussing this phenomenon/strategy further in the future - but if it's Ok with you I'm gonna try and stick with the OP for now.

 

[Random]

That's a really interesting post Random and I would definitely be interested in discussing this phenomenon/strategy further in the future - but if it's Ok with you I'm gonna try and stick with the OP for now.

Fair enough, I don't really have anything more to say on it than the musings I posted above.

 

[krtek a houby]

Thanks Gerry for swapping the armalite for an armani, says grateful British public

 

[Santino]

It's almost like this whole thread was intended to anger posters.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's almost like this whole thread was intended to anger posters.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

It's almost like this whole thread was intended to anger posters.

Or an invitation to think a bit deeper and more critically, rather than resorting to all or nothing stereotypes; it's all available...you choose.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice