I understand - but what they will do to French workers rights is nothing to what the Tories will do to UK rights. Besides I haven't got a lot of sympathy for many of the French workers considering the rise of Le Pen.
"The British people expressed their view very clearly on 23rd June"
- Thread starter Helen Back
- Start date
I understand - but what they will do to French workers rights is nothing to what the Tories will do to UK rights. Besides I haven't got a lot of sympathy for many of the French workers considering the rise of Le Pen.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
You're doing some bizarre blame towards workers (working class?) again for the rise of the right. That's just a terrible and ahistorical analysis.
However, you'll surely see the common cause for what we're seeing in France, and other European countries too, like the UK, is a backlash to many years of both EU and member state neoliberalism - of driving down wages, EU driving opening up and competitive markets (basically, means more privatisation), of social/economic benefits tending to be better for the middle class, not working class, of 'freedom of movement based on the value of your labour to capitalism' (I believe in true 'freedom of movement' not bound by capitalism and racist economic policy). This stuff doesn't just happen in some strange vacuum.
This is going to go in circles again. There are many in France experiencing the same conditions who don't turn to Le Pen.
I am proud of the ones that don't and judge those that do.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
TBF that's probably my fault, I used it first. I was trying to make the point that rather than socialists seeing their duty to spread the message to the heathen instead they should look at the world around them, identify where the conflict between labour and capital is throwing up opportunities and get involved there.
I'm not sure how else to phrase it, the process of struggle and solidarity changes peoples views, again the miners strike seems like an excellent example of this.
As danny says I think there's a category error here. Even accepting that it wasn't probably the best choice of words I don't see how you go from what I said to
newbie
undisambiguated
It's not about elections and parties and that, important though they are. Are you doubting that over time, and increasingly, there's been a buildup in rightwing clamour? Think back just a few years to when Cameron was fresh and there were all those sweet libdems running around. The change in national mood is palpable, surely?
During that period the saturation use of phones has amplified the reach and importance of social media in helping form opinion. That's undeniable, and it's impossible to pretend online doesn't matter either for opinion forming or for organisation. Opinion is becoming more and more global as grievances and the cause of and solutions to those grievances are shared, amplified, distorted, reshared etc... It's often impossible to tell whether a contribution is discussing British or American politics or social grievances, each is feeding the other.
I don't know how to prove, or even demonstrate, that the political mood has changed, so all I can do is witter about it, which, for anyone seeking to prove there's no move to the right, will be dead easy to discount.
The Syrian refugee 'crisis' polarised opinion, as did the referendum campaign, as has Trump. Gamergate happened, and SJWs became and remain an important, identifiable target for online (& ime real life) abuse. Over those years, while the left and liberal left have discussed safe spaces and the intersectional wheel of oppression, the right has forged a them and us narrative based around an identity of the white man that others take advantage of. That is played out day after day all over social media.
In the last few days Pewdiepie, the most popular youtube star on the planet with 53 million subscribers, was found out telling anti-Semitic jokes. Put his name into youtube now and you'll find a whole pile of channels defending him, none I found being critcal.
The government has noticed
icebergs have tips: hate crime has risen at 20%/year the last couple of years.
When elements of the left waved those anti-globalisation placards a a few years ago no-one took any notice. Since the right took up the same theme in numbers, they've changed the world (perhaps illusionary in economic terms but far reaching politically).
While this is not exclusively working class, the identification forgotten, left behind & abandoned has (tmm) contributed to a rise in class consciousness and assertiveness, much credited for delivering the ref result and the Trump victory. That, in itself, is a positive development. But when you dig a little deeper, economic grievances and their causes are far less relevant than identity. Us and them. Where them includes Muslims, claimants, foreigners, liberals, SJWs, global elite and the msm as particular hate figures. In some of that left and radical right share at least some common ground, though not the dogwhistles. The points at issue involve attributing causal blame to people with identities other than white man.
Openly supporting EU citizens living here or illegals in the US or questioning almost any aspect of Brexit is immediately condemned as liberal & anti-democratic, the people have spoken. In making that point it's often the case that the ref here and (to a lesser extent) the Trump election there are afforded greater legitimacy because the w/c has spoken so clearly.
Which is why I'm asking about 'following' the working class. The last time I recall teh w/c moving as a class, and outside of electoral politics, was the poll tax. Then it was the left that helped form opinion, spreading ideas that got people talking and then acting, conscious of their class and of the root cause of their grievance. This time, well who knows, but I see virtually no evidence of the causes of grievance being attributed to anything other than identifiable, often minority, targets.
too long and too woolly but I've tried. Do you really not sense anything along those lines?
newbie
undisambiguated
no.
but geography is a factor, in the sense that the w/c that delivered Brexit does not live round here in any strength, so I can't honestly say I feel part of majority w/c sentiment either.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
"here" ?
newbie
undisambiguated
I'm not particularly hung up on words, your posts expressed more clearly than I've seen elsewhere something I've been wondering about for a while. That's all.
yes but not always for the better. Not all struggle is against the class oppressor.
[/QUOTE]
As danny says I think there's a category error here. Even accepting that it wasn't probably the best choice of words I don't see how you go from what I said to[/QUOTE]
I took you to mean that when the class moves "we" should follow, join in, get on board, be part of it. Engage with it not against it. Fair enough, I understand that and as an abstract it's fine. In the past, when the assumption was that the class would move against the oppressor, such a view was unexceptional.
Now it's questionable because times have changed and right wing identity politics are a central part of current class consciousness. Anecdata suggests there were and are self organised groups of w/c people working to sway opinion in their communities (maybe under the Ukip banner or something else, facebook groups etc). Their success in the ref means in many ways they can be seen as representative of majority w/c opinion. To be part of that majority w/c sentiment means joining in with those people doesn't it, even if some have, shall we say, strong views on immigration and nationalism? That's more or less what I understand you to have said. Argue with them for sure but but join in nonetheless. Not joining in, or actively opposing their politics, is the act of a liberal in some sense pitting themselves against the w/c, isn't it?
That's why that quote is important. "It's essential to reject the idea that nothing can happen until white workers are no longer racist" has quite serious implications for members of minorities if those who would be expected to stand in solidarity are engaged, even critically, with those who attempt to scapegoat.
It's not my reasoning that I'd like to be discussing, it's yours. I'm not trying to imply anything dishonourable at all, I just don't understand your position.
newbie
undisambiguated
Brixton, inner city, global elite, south London. One of the top 10 remain wards in the country.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I see.
So this working class that you're concerned 'we' might follow live somewhere else...away from your locale?
newbie
undisambiguated
not necessarily. Working class social identity is quite strongly, and proudly, felt in parts. I'm not aware of any significant organised pro-Brexit presence here and I doubt if immigration and nationalism are particularly high on most lists of priorities. Though frankly this is London, with xillions of overlapping communities of interest, postcode, language, origin religion culture and all the rest so it's impossible to guess who thinks what.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh? Go on then, how is nationalism a bargaining chip and in what concrete ways may we see it traded?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Would you maybe like to start again, to efface these posts and begin anew?
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
newbie I don’t want to speak for redsquirrel, but I can speak for myself. To me following the class means seeking out and understanding the desires and self-activity of the people, and then articulating them in ways which contribute both to the circulation of those ideas and to the empowerment of the people.
That means promoting community self activity. Not limiting activity to fighting back, but promoting working class self-activity that goes beyond being merely reactive: self-activity that carries within it the a positive, creative re-invention of the world.
I remember from my pre-anarchist days something Richard Gombin wrote that I still think is relevant, and I have to paraphrase because it isn’t in front of me, but it was along the lines of that the ruling class (those who give orders) was the only class whose life – in terms of social and cultural expression – was properly supported by capitalism, and that the working class needs to assert its life.
I’m uncomfortable with any activism that sees itself as separate from the working class, as playing the role of an external leadership or conscience. What we should do is facilitate and advance working class autonomy and spontaneous organisation. That means not being “missionaries” telling people what they should be doing, but being a part of what is happening.
What does that mean in practical examples?
Well, taking one issue I know of: a community may have a number of elderly residents who are worried and feel threatened by what they perceive as Asian youths hanging round on street corners blocking their egress. If I come from the outside as a missionary and preach to people that they’re being racist and offer race awareness training then I’m being a patronising prick. If I’m already an known and active member of the community and I try to help find solutions that involves mutual aid between groups, then they all begin to see themselves as part of the same community, not separate communities.
In just over a week’s time I’m involved in a community ceilidh at a local community centre where refugees and others in the community are providing food and music from their own cultures: stovies and lakma. People socialising together. Starting to trust each other. Finding out what we can do for each other.
That’s what I’m talking about.
That means promoting community self activity. Not limiting activity to fighting back, but promoting working class self-activity that goes beyond being merely reactive: self-activity that carries within it the a positive, creative re-invention of the world.
I remember from my pre-anarchist days something Richard Gombin wrote that I still think is relevant, and I have to paraphrase because it isn’t in front of me, but it was along the lines of that the ruling class (those who give orders) was the only class whose life – in terms of social and cultural expression – was properly supported by capitalism, and that the working class needs to assert its life.
I’m uncomfortable with any activism that sees itself as separate from the working class, as playing the role of an external leadership or conscience. What we should do is facilitate and advance working class autonomy and spontaneous organisation. That means not being “missionaries” telling people what they should be doing, but being a part of what is happening.
What does that mean in practical examples?
Well, taking one issue I know of: a community may have a number of elderly residents who are worried and feel threatened by what they perceive as Asian youths hanging round on street corners blocking their egress. If I come from the outside as a missionary and preach to people that they’re being racist and offer race awareness training then I’m being a patronising prick. If I’m already an known and active member of the community and I try to help find solutions that involves mutual aid between groups, then they all begin to see themselves as part of the same community, not separate communities.
In just over a week’s time I’m involved in a community ceilidh at a local community centre where refugees and others in the community are providing food and music from their own cultures: stovies and lakma. People socialising together. Starting to trust each other. Finding out what we can do for each other.
That’s what I’m talking about.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
That doesn't mention nationalism being used as a bargaining chip nor how the notion may be traded.
newbie
undisambiguated
indeed you're not. Your post doesn't raise anything like the same queries as his posts have. In the ordinary course of events I wouldn't have anything to say about it, but since we're here, imagine the group of youths is white and local. Unless you're part of their community (not them of yours, so someone they've known since time) won't you be a prick from outside (patronising or otherwise), and probably a liberal/SJW one at that? 'Freedom of speech' is currently a hot topic, see the pewdiepie threads i mentioned for how attempts to interfere with it are viewed. Interfering with kicking a ball around is the same grievance as all the others by the time it spills out onto a thread somewhere. FoS is defined by the alt-right, of course.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Yes. I would only be active in my own community. And by community I mean geographic area.
newbie
undisambiguated
if you attempt forensic deconstruction of what I write you'll just end up confused. give up now
people are being used as bargaining chips- very explicitly- and they and others are worried about their futures. you knew that really
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
Clearly a side effect of his most recent job, flying between the Middle East and Columbia.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
On this one danny I think you could pretty much speak for me, I'm in furious agreement with all that.
See what danny said above. What I was trying to express that you (the general you) should recognise that attempting to "convert" the w/c of your desires isn't the way to go. For example over the last couple of days there's been a number of posts that have effectively argued that the w/c has to be convinced/vote for the return to the post-war consensus. Now don't get me wrong, personally I'd much rather have the PWC than the current situation, but for good or for ill the pressure exerted by labour to force capital to concede the welfare state is no longer there (though the desires for many elements of welfare state are). Instead we should look for new areas where there's conflict between capital and labour and try and get involved there - so in the "gig" economy fight, or the brewing fight over renting. We can of course take ideas from older struggles but we have to modify them to work for the current desires of people.
Well I pretty much disagree with all of this, I'm not a fan of the idea of 'class consciousness', I don't agree with your 'anecdata' and you're understanding of what you think I've said is utterly wrong.
OK I think your interpretation of that quote is not one that it can support (and note you've chopped off the bit abut how people are changed through struggle). I mean do you disagree with that quote? There is no past social movement that didn't have a least some people with reactionary views, so what are you saying here? That socialists shouldn't have got involved with the Russian soviets because many members were racist and sexist? That communists should have argued against the Paris Commune because of the anti-German sentiment? That people shouldn't have got involved with the miners strike? Of course you're not, so what exactly are you objecting to about that quote of Glaberman?
Well a debate is a two way process, if your reasoning isn't open for discussion then why bother.
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Treacle Toes
Time
This post would be a great addition to Chilango's thread 'Lexit' IMO.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Wow, there are people doing this before the actual fucking election?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Me, wise intellectual and progressive: Working-class, I hate you because of how I, wrongly, reckon you are forecasted to vote. Now vote Macron you pieces of shit.
Them, fascist stupid and ignorant: Solidarité, mon compatriote. Welcome home. I know that things are not as they should be, or how you envisaged that they would be. In uncertain times I will defend you from those who openly sneer at you and seek to take what little you have left from you.
Them, fascist stupid and ignorant: Solidarité, mon compatriote. Welcome home. I know that things are not as they should be, or how you envisaged that they would be. In uncertain times I will defend you from those who openly sneer at you and seek to take what little you have left from you.
I don't think Le Pen will win but an unacceptable number of people will vote for her.
Still its also unacceptable to imply that Im intellectual
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
London sounds great although it did manage to elect Boris .
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Absolutely ,blame the French working class for the rise of Le Pen.
I blame whoever votes for her. You excuse them if you wish to do so.
Supine
Newt Member
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