"The British people expressed their view very clearly on 23rd June"

[brogdale]

Clearly a post (evidence) politics thread.

 

[stethoscope]

When I am having a discussion that requires the use of evidence than I will give it a go. This is not one.

Usually, if you make assertions, it's generally expected for you to provide some argument along with any supporting evidence.

 

[B.I.G]

Why doesn't this require evidence? Where's your evidence and explanation for this new unsupported assertion?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Exactly what are you saying requires evidence?

 

[brogdale]

Exactly what are you saying requires evidence?

Can speak for anyone else, but I'd be interested to see the basis for you deciding what it is that "the voters want".

 

[B.I.G]

Usually, if you make assertions, it's generally expected for you to provide some argument along with any supporting evidence.

People keep saying that, but the evidence I generally read on here either consists of some political theory (never proved) or some stats that not useful.

I believe there will be a Tory government for the next 20 years as the country is shifting to the right. I have no evidence but its what I believe, its not something I'm going to keep repeating unless people across all the threads keep quoting me on it.

If you believe that there will be a different scenario in the next twenty years, then I won't try to change your mind, and what will be will be.

 

[stethoscope]

I believe there will be a Tory government for the next 20 years as the country is shifting to the right. I have no evidence but its what I believe, its not something I'm going to keep repeating unless people across all the threads keep quoting me on it.

On the basis that Labour has been, and is still doing this same shift to the right, essentially following the same (but slightly less 'hard and fast') politics of privatisation, austerity and cuts, selling off of social housing and public services, etc. as the Tories, what then?

 

[B.I.G]

Can speak for anyone else, but I'd be interested to see the basis for you deciding what it is that "the voters want".

A political party is supposed to decide "what the people want" and promise to deliver that in order to try and win votes.

If you are asking me what people in this country want - then I would say they want more money to provide for themselves, and less insecurity over their homes. But its just my opinion.

 

[brogdale]

what will be will be.

Give up pal; you've lost the plot completely.

 

[B.I.G]

On the basis that Labour has been, and is still doing this same shift to the right, essentially following the same (but slightly less 'hard and fast') politics of privatisation, austerity and cuts, selling off of social housing and public services, etc. as the Tories, what then?

Corbyn was supposed to move the policies of the Labour party to the left. Something he has completely failed to do.

 

[stethoscope]

Corbyn was supposed to move the policies of the Labour party to the left. Something he has completely failed to do.

So, what do you think will happen next?

 

[B.I.G]

Give up pal; you've lost the plot completely.

Are you saying that I can influence the future political path of the country, as I don't believe I can.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Exactly what are you saying requires evidence?

Both of your assertions obviously. The first relating to 20 more years of Tory rule claim and the second regarding this being an evidence free zone.

So to make it easy for you; firstly, what is the evidence (and the explanation that evidence supports) which convinces you that another two decades of Conservative government is on the cards? Secondly, what is it about this discussion which excuses it from requiring some sort factual and analytic underpinning? If you are just here for entertainment's sake then you could be a bit more up front about it...and a bit more entertaining.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[B.I.G]

So, what do you think will happen next?

I think the labour party will fail to get into power in the next government.

 

[brogdale]

Are you saying that I can influence the future political path of the country, as I don't believe I can.

And your work here will be complete when you've persuaded everyone else to do fuck all and suck it up?

 

[stethoscope]

I think the labour party will fail to get into power in the next government.

I see, and what do you attribute this problem? Do you think replacing Corbyn will help? Bearing in mind that most of the Labour PLP (Parliamentary Labour Party) have no interest in moving leftwards?

 

[B.I.G]

Both of your assertions obviously. The first relating to 20 more years of Tory rule claim and the second regarding this being an evidence free zone.

So to make it easy for you; firstly, what is the evidence (and the explanation that evidence supports) which convinces you that another two decades of Conservative government is on the cards? Secondly, what is it about this discussion which excuses it from requiring some sort factual and analytic underpinning? If you are just here for entertainment's sake then you could be a bit more up front about it...and a bit more entertaining.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

What evidence could I provide to satisfy you? The boundary changes, the fact people in Labour heartlands are voting UKIP, the Tories are destroying the country and still topping the opinion polls.

 

[B.I.G]

I see, and what do you attribute this problem? Do you think replacing Corbyn will help? Bearing in mind that most of the Labour PLP (Parliamentary Labour Party) have no interest in moving leftwards?

It would help the labour party if Corbyn could apply some of his ideals to actual policies and issues affecting the country, and make steps to communicate directly with the people he wants to convince.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

A political party is supposed to decide "what the people want" and promise to deliver that in order to try and win votes.

If you are asking me what people in this country want - then I would say they want more money to provide for themselves, and less insecurity over their homes. But its just my opinion.

Is that all they can do? If so it's a pretty limited view and one which doesn't accord with the past actions of political parties; think about the ideological and cultural changes championed by the Thatcher governments.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[B.I.G]

And your work here will be complete when you've persuaded everyone else to do fuck all and suck it up?

People can fight it as much as they like, I will be proud of anyone that makes a difference.

 

[B.I.G]

Is that all they can do? If so it's a pretty limited view and one which doesn't accord with the past actions of political parties; think about the ideological and cultural changes championed by the Thatcher governments.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

The ideological changes and cultural changes that the people wanted and repeatedly voted back into government.

 

[stethoscope]

It would help the labour party if Corbyn could apply some of his ideals to actual policies and issues affecting the country, and make steps to communicate directly with the people he wants to convince.

You'll have to excuse me here, as I'm a bit confused. You see, you seem to have issues with the working class, whom are the core foundation of left and traditional Labour politics. So, it seems to me that you need to connect with these people - in fact you've said that above. And yet, your current approach seems to be in opposition to that?

 

[B.I.G]

You'll have to excuse me here, as I'm a bit confused. You see, you seem to have issues with the working class, whom are the core foundation of left and traditional Labour politics. So, it seems to me that you need to connect with these people - in fact you've said that above. And yet, your current approach seems to be in opposition to that?

I am a member of the working class as I define myself. The labour party needs to connect with them or whoever it needs to in order to deliver a better government than the tory party.

I also think that there a large number of working class racists, for which I get constant stick. Whether the labour party can change their mind or not I don't know but I am opposed to pandering to their racism. If pandering to their racism means they stay in opposition forever then I will have to live with that.

 

[stethoscope]

Also, you seem to take issue with unions regularly, who are part of that left tradition of fighting for, and ensuring that workers have better pay and conditions and for protection at work. All of this came from homegrown 'bottom up' fight from the left tradition (it wasn't just given by the EU - in fact, many of these things were adopted by the EU based on the UK having led the way). I don't know, you've got me properly baffled here at times.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

What evidence could I provide to satisfy you? The boundary changes, the fact people in Labour heartlands are voting UKIP, the Tories are destroying the country and still topping the opinion polls.

Brilliant you're getting the idea! Now all you've got to do is actually go and have a look at that evidence (rather than the reporting of it), provide some links to it and explain how it supports your doom laden prediction. Try having a look at the actual numbers of Labour voters supporting UKIP against the numbers needed to loose Labour actual seats. Also have a think about the levels of Tory support in terms of the population as a whole and consider the longterm sustainability of a system where such significant sections of the population have disengaged from political participation. That should keep you busy for a bit. I'll check back in tomorrow to see how you're doing. Good luck and have fun!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Treacle Toes]

I am a member of the working class as I define myself. The labour party needs to connect with them or whoever it needs to in order to deliver a better government than the tory party.

I also think that there a large number of working class racists, for which I get constant stick. Whether the labour party can change their mind or not I don't know but I am opposed to pandering to their racism. If pandering to their racism means they stay in opposition forever then I will have to live with that.

Why do W/C racists give you stick particularly?

 

[B.I.G]

Also, you seem to take issue with unions regularly, who are part of that left tradition of fighting for, and ensuring that workers have better pay and conditions and for protection at work. All of this came from homegrown 'bottom up' fight from the left tradition (it wasn't just given by the EU - in fact, many of these things were adopted by the EU based on the UK having led the way). I don't know, you've got me properly baffled here at times.

I don't have a problem with the concept of unions. So many unions and union reps do so much good for people, protecting their rights etc.

I have a problem with the RMT and in particular tube drivers (not because they have delivered good wages or rights for the workforce) but because i don't like some of the attitudes of some of their reps and members.

I also have an issue with some union leaders and their need to borrow money to buy a house for themselves or the like. A union leader should be beyond reproach.

I will take the best of the EU and the best of the UK for workers rights, but it is likely leaving the EU under the current government will lead to a bonfire of those rights.

Anyway, its nice to discuss without being abused thank you.

 

[B.I.G]

Why do W/C racists give you stick particularly?

I mean I get abuse on Urban for stating there are a large proportion of the working class that are racist.

 

[stethoscope]

I am a member of the working class as I define myself. The labour party needs to connect with them or whoever it needs to in order to deliver a better government than the tory party.

I also think that there a large number of working class racists, for which I get constant stick. Whether the labour party can change their mind or not I don't know but I am opposed to pandering to their racism. If pandering to their racism means they stay in opposition forever then I will have to live with that.

And what you think is the best thing to do with any working class people that may show some racist sentiment? You know, not organised racists/fascists, but everyday people who might show it. Would you say that reaching out to them, showing social and economic approaches that can practically improve their lives (housing, public services, jobs and security), whilst also working towards dispelling such frictions between different communities and races might be the way here? After all, most of this division results from capitalism and class structures - most of these aren't going to be 'natural racists'. Surely, you don't just set up a tier of yourself as the non-racist working class and just consign everybody else to the gutter? Doesn't this just make the situation worse, as we're seeing in practise as it goes?

 

[B.I.G]

And what you think is the best thing to do with any working class people that may show some racist sentiment? You know, not organised racists/fascists, but everyday people who might show it. Would you say that reaching out to them, showing social and economic approaches that can practically improve their lives (housing, public services, jobs and security), whilst also working towards dispelling such frictions between different communities and races might be the way here? After all, most of this division results from capitalism and class structures - most of these aren't going to be 'natural racists'. Surely, you don't just set up a tier of yourself as the non-racist working class and just consign everybody else to the gutter? Doesn't this just make the situation worse, as we're seeing in practise as it goes?

Sure - that is what Corbyn should be doing, instead he is taking us out of the EU, setting up the Tory government to rip these things out of scoiety.

I have a lot of respect for people that don't give into xenophobic tendencies in areas where they are common place. Two people in identical situations and one might blame migrants and one may not, I know which I would prefer to help.

 

[stethoscope]

I will take the best of the EU and the best of the UK for workers rights, but it is likely leaving the EU under the current government will lead to a bonfire of those rights.

You know that the EU's era of 'social contract' ended in the 90s, and that the EU has been following the same course of reducing worker rights? You might want to see what the EU, with its partner institutions the IMF and ECB, have done to French worker rights recently for example, despite being in the EU/Euro.