Dom Traynor
Tino Pai
I can just make out something about quiet bat people?FWIW, today's snapped Downing St. notes transcribed...
The Brexit process
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
An impossibility. The smaller constituent members would need to give consent without the overweening presence of a dominant nation wielding the reins of power. The whole edifice of a kingdom built for colonial appropriation firstly needs to come down.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How was it built for colonial appropriation? and when?
Scottish ruling class fucked up their first go at colonialism and looked to the old hands at the job. bish bosh bash acts of union and they were off, kilts and rooinekkes on tour.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Off the top of my head, the Laws in Wales Acts 1535 and 1542 might be a place to start.
Plenty more colonial appropriation since then, of course (and possibly before, if someone wants to argue it)
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
This is a serious business not a reality TV show.
MPs should vote only after a sober consideration of likely outcomes of policy taking fully on board the advice of knowledgable Civil Servants. They should then advocate for what they believe is best for country even if it gets them sacked. And that should be tested robustly in open deliberation in Parliament. It's this way because far too easy to make really stupid mistakes that will lastingly damage the country. Often what results really won't track with the shifts of the popular will.
A lot of necessary public policy will not be popular. The death penalty is a good example. It was widely supported by UK voters and repealed long before that was a popular idea. In 2015 support for death penalty drops below 50% for the first time so public acceptance really trailed that amongst MPs by decades. Public instincts are often not to look to the tests of the future but to run back towards a gilded past forgetting it was actually pretty shitty.
Representative democracy is based on the idea it's more practical to delegate to a reasonably well informed body of elected representatives in making political decisions. Politics is complex and voters can't really be expected to be alert to the consequences of their inclinations that often are emotive. MP's should not sheepishly follow the generally instincts of their constituents just take note of the popular mood and consider their reelection prospects.
Sometimes it falls flat. Guiding ideology can lead politicians towards perverse positions and sometimes they are just a bit lazy and prone to BS like the rest of us. Most MPs on both sides of the Brexit debate it's now clear had little idea about how the EU functioned, what the Single Market is and even the Civil Servants advising them had little real experience in trade agreements. But now it's their job to make the best fist they can of that for the UK.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Not so sure tbh as I would have thought eg the declaration of England as an empire might be a better starting point, not to mention the Irish experience.
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
On Bloomberg Forget About Cherrypicking Your Brexit, Irish Leader Warns U.K.
Enda reckons Article 50 in two years is very unlikely.
Enda reckons Article 50 in two years is very unlikely.
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
In The Daily Mirror Theresa May demands end to Brexit leaks in stern memo... and the memo gets leaked
It's getting like John Major and "The Bastards".
It's getting like John Major and "The Bastards".
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
The Irish guv now? After Malta's PM saying exactly the same thing last week? Big hitters indeed.
There's only one EU leader who matters and she's got a lot more shit to worry about than Brexit.
Prince Harry's girlfriend?
CrabbedOne
Walking sideways snippily
The RoI government is one of few ones that is actually consistently friendly towards the UK in the whole Brexit thing. Unlike the big boys if it goes badly Dublin is fucked.
Anyone else watching the Supreme Court proceedings?
It's surprisingly clear and easy to follow. With a bit of pre-reading (the first decision here - Miller & Anor, R (On the Application Of) v The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Rev 1) [2016] EWHC 2768 (Admin) (03 November 2016)) it should be accessible to all.
Fascinating period just now as Eadie is making the government's case.
The questioning from Lord Carnworth in particular is rather uncomfortable for the government - pointing out that there is zero guidance on the proposed Great Repeal Bill as to Parliament's role in Brexit. This line of reasoning drives toward a conclusion where the government doesn't just lose but loses very severely, with the court setting out a detailed Brexit process, potentially taking many years.
It's surprisingly clear and easy to follow. With a bit of pre-reading (the first decision here - Miller & Anor, R (On the Application Of) v The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Rev 1) [2016] EWHC 2768 (Admin) (03 November 2016)) it should be accessible to all.
Fascinating period just now as Eadie is making the government's case.
The questioning from Lord Carnworth in particular is rather uncomfortable for the government - pointing out that there is zero guidance on the proposed Great Repeal Bill as to Parliament's role in Brexit. This line of reasoning drives toward a conclusion where the government doesn't just lose but loses very severely, with the court setting out a detailed Brexit process, potentially taking many years.
gosub
~#
Interesting, as things stand, on that argument, if they lose I wouldn't blame them for going to the ECJ...Act50 is a EUropean Council thing. It would be in the interests of the governments of EUrope to reach reciprocal agreement not to use EUropean citizens as pawns before potentially a EUropean court could decide if its citizens rights trump European government's right to rescind them.
Yossarian
⏭️
If the UK wants an extension of the negotiating period after the 2 years following Article 50 are up, it's going to have to get the approval of Ireland and Malta - and Estonia, Luxembourg, etc...
gosub
~#
Agreeing an extension would have to be unanimous, and if going round down that route should be doing it now as a condition of triggering...if not you want the quick and dirty EFTA transitional holding position
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Apparently you can only refer a point to the ECJ (now called the CJEU) while the case is ongoing. Once a judgment's been handed down it's too late (afaik it's not a court of appeal, more like a place to refer difficult issues to help the lower court to reach a decision).
The case will be stayed while the preliminary reference is dealt with.
The CJEU is, of course, a court that EU citizens can assert their rights in so, in that sense, it can be a forum for both standalone and appellate litigation.
The preliminary reference procedure is used to try and create certainty while taking into account the fundamental EU principle of subsidiarity.
However - key point is that, much to my dismay and disappointment, nobody seems to be mentioning a preliminary reference at this point.
That may change if the question of a50 notification revocability, which looks like a question of purely EU law, is raised.
But the focus for the moment is squarely on domestic law re: prerogative powers v parliamentary scrutiny and approval.
That may change if the question of a50 notification revocability, which looks like a question of purely EU law, is raised.
But the focus for the moment is squarely on domestic law re: prerogative powers v parliamentary scrutiny and approval.
On the preliminary reference point:
Richard Lang: The Article 50 Litigation and the Court of Justice: Why the Supreme Court Must Refer
I am genuinely astonished that there seems to be zero noise around this - it would be politically explosive for the Supreme Court to appear to defer to the CJEU on a point of law that could be determinative of Brexit!
Richard Lang: The Article 50 Litigation and the Court of Justice: Why the Supreme Court Must Refer
I am genuinely astonished that there seems to be zero noise around this - it would be politically explosive for the Supreme Court to appear to defer to the CJEU on a point of law that could be determinative of Brexit!
flypanam
Sausage to fortune
In more ways than one, stay in the EU Europe will fuck with Ireland's 'No need for tax, mate' regime, if it leaves the EU there will be war especially in the rural areas, farmers are very much attached to their EU payments as most Irish farms are small.
gosub
~#
Miller accepts irrevocability of Art 50. NI case is more correct on the technical but it is in documentation as an aside rather than an arguement. Neither are going down that route.
(Is irrovocable in sense of not being able to be unilaterally undone.)
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gosub
~#
and very well fenced
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Yeah but May's replied that we're gonna have a red, white and blue Brexit.
So probably a French one.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
She can't mean us, cos Scotland's doing the off and we'll have no blue, so yeah, probably Cuba.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think there's a lot of hot air being expelled about a50 revocability. If there is the political will to allow it to be revoked, it can be revoked - some clause in some law somewhere can be interpreted in such a way as to allow it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Red and White? Poland, surely.
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