The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Winot]

the libdems, tinge and SNP swung the vote against a customs union - which failed by 3 votes

Soft Brexiters blame referendum supporters for Commons deadlock

Independent Group, Lib Dems and SNP fail to back customs union as it falls by three votes

www.theguardian.com

key moment

Yes they should have compromised and backed the CU option. However that doesn’t mean it would have happened. It was an indicative vote. May would have been subject to the same pressures from within her party that lead to her downfall.

 

[ska invita]

That suggests that the argument is that it made sense to support Brexit on the basis that it would quite likely lead to a very soft Brexit

it wasnt - there are public polls on urban - loads wanted a No Deal and loads wanted a Hard Brexit

 

[Winot]

Why not just sign up for a rolling deal with a review date every couple of years to decide whether to continue or renegotiate?

Thinking more about this. Isn’t the EU proposal in effect a rolling agreement with the right to terminate at any point if the terms change? The UK has the right to back out and trade on WTO terms at any point it wants.

So as David Gauke said yesterday, the UK is facing a choice of WTO tariffs now or agree to a deal with the option of WTO tariffs in the future if things change in a way it does not like.

Seems a no-brainer.

 

[not-bono-ever]

That’s how FTA operates innit

 

[TopCat]

Thinking more about this. Isn’t the EU proposal in effect a rolling agreement with the right to terminate at any point if the terms change? The UK has the right to back out and trade on WTO terms at any point it wants.

So as David Gauke said yesterday, the UK is facing a choice of WTO tariffs now or agree to a deal with the option of WTO tariffs in the future if things change in a way it does not like.

Seems a no-brainer.

The terms wont be acceptable to the UK.

 

[Pickman's model]

The terms wont be acceptable to the UK.

The European Union's unconditional surrender will be signed at luneberg heath

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes they should have compromised and backed the CU option. However that doesn’t mean it would have happened. It was an indicative vote. May would have been subject to the same pressures from within her party that lead to her downfall.

If the indicative vote had won be a couple of votes it seems pretty likely that any subsequent binding vote on keeping the CU would have failed. Weeks and months of frothing about 'betrayal' from the swivel-eyed wing of the press, which is most of the press these days, would have been the death of it.

 

[TopCat]

The European Union's unconditional surrender will be signed at luneberg heath

Was this the dream that Boris awoke to? Soon punctured (as will be his career shortly).

 

[SpookyFrank]

Thinking more about this. Isn’t the EU proposal in effect a rolling agreement with the right to terminate at any point if the terms change? The UK has the right to back out and trade on WTO terms at any point it wants.

So as David Gauke said yesterday, the UK is facing a choice of WTO tariffs now or agree to a deal with the option of WTO tariffs in the future if things change in a way it does not like.

Seems a no-brainer.

More like take WTO terms now, come crawling back on even worse terms six months down the line when Johnson has given up and fucked off.

 

[Pickman's model]

More like take WTO terms now, come crawling back on even worse terms six months down the line when Johnson has given up and fucked off.

* rejoining the eu

• take the euro
• no veto
• boris johnson's head on a spike

at least we'd willingly hand over the wretched johnson to meet his end at the hands of the executioner of strasbourg or brussels

 

[SpookyFrank]

* rejoining the eu

• take the euro
• no veto
• boris johnson's head on a spike

at least we'd willingly hand over the wretched johnson to meet his end at the hands of the executioner of strasbourg or brussels

British spikes for British traitors

 

[TopCat]

* rejoining the eu

• take the euro
• no veto
• boris johnson's head on a spike

at least we'd willingly hand over the wretched johnson to meet his end at the hands of the executioner of strasbourg or brussels

I think the French will demand Kent too.

 

[Flavour]

The Euro thing is the main reason there's almost zero prospect of the UK ever rejoining the EU -- the Euro is fucking awful and any government would be absolutely mad to entertain joining it. It will never happen. Had a sweet deal being in the EU without the Euro obviously, from the pov of capitalism

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the French will demand Kent too.

no one will want it after it becomes the latrine of britain

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think the French will demand Kent too.

That will be difficult. Pretending we wouldn't have let it go for nothing I mean.

 

[not-bono-ever]

It’s a Hiroo Onoda style deal we want

( the Japanese solider who spent half a century in the jungle refusing to accept that Japan had surrendered)

 

[two sheds]

The coming Trump style eh?

 

[gosub]

Seems a bit like the argument being made here is that no, it wasn't foolish to support Brexit because it wasn't inevitable that it would end in a chaotic crash-out. That suggests that the argument is that it made sense to support Brexit on the basis that it would quite likely lead to a very soft Brexit where we'd be in a customs union tied tightly to all the EU rules and so on. So, if that was the outcome envisaged by those who supported Brexit, what was the actual point of Brexit again?

To decouple from the EU, (a separate thing to the Single Market) one in which the EUrozone countries have and had quorum.

 

[philosophical]

My understanding is no deal means no border in the Irish sea.
Back to sorting out the land border then.
So how are the technological solutions coming along I wonder.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seems a bit like the argument being made here is that no, it wasn't foolish to support Brexit because it wasn't inevitable that it would end in a chaotic crash-out. That suggests that the argument is that it made sense to support Brexit on the basis that it would quite likely lead to a very soft Brexit where we'd be in a customs union tied tightly to all the EU rules and so on. So, if that was the outcome envisaged by those who supported Brexit, what was the actual point of Brexit again?

that's certainly not the argument i've been making, which has been in contrast to lbj's 'this was inevitable' that other outcomes could easily have occurred, ranging from an actual brexit deal to a second referendum.

 

[Artaxerxes]

My understanding is no deal means no border in the Irish sea.
Back to sorting out the land border then.
So how are the technological solutions coming along I wonder.

 

[TopCat]

that's certainly not the argument i've been making, which has been in contrast to lbj's 'this was inevitable' that other outcomes could easily have occurred, ranging from an actual brexit deal to a second referendum.

The remainers could have recognized the result and compromised. Instead that debacle about the peoples vote just polarised options more.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Is this going to bounce around for decades like Scargills “ yeh but he should have put it to a vote” ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is this going to bounce around for decades like Scargills “ yeh but he should have put it to a vote” ?

not here i hope

 

[gosub]

Is this going to bounce around for decades like Scargills “ yeh but he should have put it to a vote” ?

Yep, look like it. Except heard dark mutterings from your average remainer down the pub types that there shouldn't have been a vote at all

 

[flypanam]

I think the French will demand Kent too.

Could just offer them Bexley?

 

[TopCat]

Could just offer them Bexley?

Boris head plus seamless market access, 50% of the fish plus they get Eltham.

 

[Artaxerxes]

 

[William of Walworth]

The remainers could have recognized the result and compromised. Instead that debacle about the peoples vote just polarised options more.

Apologies if this article was linked to earlier up , but you're getting quite close to Owen Jones' argument there :

Hard remainers wouldn't accept a soft Brexit. Now we're all paying the price
Anything other than stopping Brexit was written off as both disastrous for the country and morally untenable

None of this was inevitable. Don’t listen to me; heed the words of Peter Mandelson instead, who has declared that this is “the price the rest of us in the pro-EU camp will pay for trying, in the years following 2016, to reverse the referendum decision rather than achieve the least damaging form of Brexit”.
Much too late. The price that will be paid over a generation or more due to a failure to unite around a compromise is steep indeed.

Mandelson FFS!!

 

[editor]

The remainers could have recognized the result and compromised. Instead that debacle about the peoples vote just polarised options more.

Wait - this catastrophic fuck up is somehow the remainers fault?

Absolutely fucking priceless.