The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[sleaterkinney]

But what about the special relationship?

Like this you mean?

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www.google.com

 

[Artaxerxes]

I was taking the piss. But do expand please.

Its hard to tell when your taking the piss because you seem pretty invested in how great Brexit is going to be.

The Anglo-Saxon Heritage aspect of the special relationship isn't tripping some alarms for you?

 

[Pickman's model]

A masturbatory fantasy that’s been bullshit for decades.

We have been actively fucked over by the USA since at least WW2 1776 despite throwing money and knowledge at them. They fucked us withholding nuclear tech, the told us to jog on over Suez, our air industry bled knowledge to Boeing and the newer fighters come with so many clauses British engineers can’t work on them. Blair was convinced we’d get special treatment from the US and marched us to war but we got fuck all.

c4u

 

[TopCat]

Its hard to tell when your taking the piss because you seem pretty invested in how great Brexit is going to be.

The Anglo-Saxon Heritage aspect of the special relationship isn't tripping some alarms for you?

We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.

 

[gosub]

U.K., EU brace for no-deal Brexit cliff as trade talks falter

Contingency measures look to ensure that basic air and road connectivity are maintained.

www.axios.com

 

[toblerone3]

Wow the January 1st travel ban to Europe is pretty full on. Presume it doesn't apply to non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland.

 

[TopCat]

Wow the January 1st travel ban to Europe is pretty full on. Presume it doesn't apply to non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland.

Probably banned from overflying France if there are UK passengers on board.

 

[TopCat]

U.K., EU brace for no-deal Brexit cliff as trade talks falter

Contingency measures look to ensure that basic air and road connectivity are maintained.

www.axios.com

Their contingency plans dont amount to much if they are not signed up to?

 

[Artaxerxes]

We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.

My mistake, seeing your "the EU are fucked, the EU will blink" posts in the last few pages I assumed you were a pro-Leaver but I can see your more of a "Fuck the lot of them and capitalism to" poster.

 

[Dogsauce]

(...) Particularly as the EU think they'll get a better deal from the UK next year after they've had a no deal beasting.

I think the idea was that the US would have our backs and keep things non-dystopain in the event of a no-deal, which the EU would have been aware of and factored into what they were offering. Since Trump is now trickling down the drain and Biden isn’t onboard with the Bannon/Farage fuck-the-EU bandwagon we’ve been left flapping in the wind a bit.

 

[TopCat]

My mistake, seeing your "the EU are fucked, the EU will blink" posts in the last few pages I assumed you were a pro-Leaver but I can see your more of a "Fuck the lot of them and capitalism to" poster.

Its quite a lot of that mixed with a bit of resentment towards former self declared anti capitalists who loudly extolled support for the EU and asserted that this was the only acceptable position, denigrating any naysayers with smears and lies.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Its quite a lot of that mixed with a bit of resentment towards former self declared anti capitalists who loudly extolled support for the EU and asserted that this was the only acceptable position, denigrating any naysayers with smears and lies.

Fair enough, it can be quite a surprisingly emotional issue for some considering the rhetoric towards say Greece, around 2010-2014.

The brexit vote was top heavy racist and uses racist language to stoke the culture war but that doesn't mean all leave voters are racists, some are just very very angry at the status quo and rather oddly assume Farage has their interests at heart.

 

[editor]

We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.

So you voted for something that has no benefits, only the clear catalogue of disasters that are going to hurt people, result in food shortages, less travel opportunities, restrict the arts, stop bands from touring, empowered racists and xenophobes and drain billions in never ending pointless bureaucracy? Oh, OK.

 

[TopCat]

So you voted for something that has no benefits, only the clear catalogue of disasters that are going to hurt people, result in food shortages, less travel opportunities, restrict the arts, stop bands from touring, empowered racists and xenophobes and drain billions in never ending pointless bureaucracy? Oh, OK.

Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.

I don't think its known for its lack of bureaucracy either tbh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Wow the January 1st travel ban to Europe is pretty full on. Presume it doesn't apply to non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland.

Haven't checked, but Switzerland is part of the free movement area, like Norway, so quite possibly it applies there as well. Not an easily googlable answer.

The Swiss are free to make their own rules for the UK, though. Switzerland has signed a separate agreement with the UK to facilitate business travel. This is a little look at our post-Brexit future - easy movement for the rich, restricted, regulated movement for the rest of us. The consequences of leaving the free movement area are all shit. It's just a fucking shit thing to happen.

Switzerland to sign deal with UK allowing free travel for professional workers - CityAM

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.

How is that relevant, though? The UK leaving the EU doesn't help refugees or the Greeks. Tthe UK's record generally on refugees has been shamefully poor for a long time and all the signs are that it is about to get even worse. As a net contributor to the EU budget, the UK leaving the EU is only going to reduce any potential money pot available to go to poorer areas within the EU, so if anything the argument can be made the other way - UK withdrawing has a potentially negative effect for poorer countries within the EU, not positive.

Meanwhile there are all kinds of immediate negatives for us from withdrawal. Concrete things we can point at. And anybody wishing to influence EU policy direction from the UK has lost many of the means that were previously available to them. The UK-based organisation Compasion in World Farming is a good example of the negative effect of withdrawal in this regard - it has previously pushed through reforms of farming practices at an EU law level.

 

[Raheem]

Downing Street seem to be refusing to say either way whether they would accept the EU contingency plans, which must surely mean they see it as a real possibility that they will. So we could be in for another year of negotiations.

 

[editor]

Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.

Sorry, I can't see your words for all the strawmen you've just erected there.

Meanwhile Brexit was never a grassroots movement, but an elitist political takeover | Aditya Chakrabortty

 

[Artaxerxes]

How is that relevant, though? The UK leaving the EU doesn't help refugees or the Greeks. Tthe UK's record generally on refugees has been shamefully poor for a long time and all the signs are that it is about to get even worse. As a net contributor to the EU budget, the UK leaving the EU is only going to reduce any potential money pot available to go to poorer areas within the EU, so if anything the argument can be made the other way - UK withdrawing has a potentially negative effect for poorer countries within the EU, not positive.

Meanwhile there are all kinds of immediate negatives for us from withdrawal. Concrete things we can point at. And anybody wishing to influence EU policy direction from the UK has lost many of the means that were previously available to them. The UK-based organisation Compasion in World Farming is a good example of the negative effect of withdrawal in this regard - it has previously pushed through reforms of farming practices at an EU law level.

Indeed, theres scope to leave the EU and hurt the EU and a left wing case for damaging the EU but we do not meet it in anyway, our politics is toxic with jingoistic right wing nastiness and its being lapped up by enough of the population to give the Conservatives an ability to do what the hell they like.

I'm fine for voting Leave but not the way we did or with who was leading the charge. The EU for all its awfulness was something of a check on the Conservatives and when we go the gloves will be off.

 

[editor]

How is that relevant, though? The UK leaving the EU doesn't help refugees or the Greeks. Tthe UK's record generally on refugees has been shamefully poor for a long time and all the signs are that it is about to get even worse. As a net contributor to the EU budget, the UK leaving the EU is only going to reduce any potential money pot available to go to poorer areas within the EU, so if anything the argument can be made the other way - UK withdrawing has a potentially negative effect for poorer countries within the EU, not positive.

Indeed. You've got to be really dreaming if you think Brexit is somehow going to soften the UK's stance on refugees, and make things better for them.

Given the rampant xenophobia that Brexit has stoked up, I'd say it's highly likely the UK will end up being even more shittier to refugees.

 

[Pickman's model]

So you voted for something that has no benefits, only the clear catalogue of disasters that are going to hurt people, result in food shortages, less travel opportunities, restrict the arts, stop bands from touring, empowered racists and xenophobes and drain billions in never ending pointless bureaucracy? Oh, OK.

everyone who has voted has a lot to answer for

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is exactly the point. You don't have to be a cheerleader for the EU to be against this brexit. And you have to be naive as hell ever to have thought that any other kind of brexit was possible, given who it was that was campaigning for brexit and who it is that has been politically empowered by it. This has all been very clear right from the start.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is exactly the point. You don't have to be a cheerleader for the EU to be against this brexit. And you have to be naive as hell ever to have thought that any other kind of brexit was possible, given who it was that was campaigning for brexit and has been politically empowered by it. This has all been very clear right from the start.

yes it was and no it hasn't

 

[MickiQ]

Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.

The EU isn't a workers paradise no but oddly enough most of the countries with strong employment protection rights are members of it and it does set out minimum standards which the UK has always put plenty of effort in trying to wiggle out off.
As for the drowned refugees in the Med being the fault of the EU, Assuming the EU did not exist and that Europe was still made up of independent states how would things be different? Would Italy or Greece or Spain be rolling out the welcome wagon for them?

 

[ska invita]

We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.

Giving the Tories a great big kick into a nationalist-platform election-winning position of dominance for at least a generation? Couldve done without that, if thats all this is about

 

[Artaxerxes]

No it hasn't

No it was quite clear what Brexit was about right from the moment UKIP started pissing out its message.

 

[ska invita]

As for the drowned refugees in the Med being the fault of the EU, Assuming the EU did not exist and that Europe was still made up of independent states how would things be different? Would Italy or Greece or Spain be rolling out the welcome wagon for them?

Ive never got a satisfactory answer to this one - anti-refugee policy was driven by nation states. The EUs attempt to broker cross-europe quota on taking refugees was quashed - by nation states.
As with that crisis the lack of an EU response to Covid has shown up its limits of power, and where nation states continue to rule. It is not a full supra-national-state (yet)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

no it hasn't

There's proof here on Urban if you want to wind back to 2016 and look at pre-referendum posts. It was clear to plenty of posters on here that notions of a 'lexit' were a fantasy. Yet here we are nearly five years later and still the argument is made that opposing brexit is somehow cheerleading neoliberalism. It's bollocks, and always was.

 

[The39thStep]

The EU isn't a workers paradise no but oddly enough most of the countries with strong employment protection rights are members of it and it does set out minimum standards which the UK has always put plenty of effort in trying to wiggle out off.
As for the drowned refugees in the Med being the fault of the EU, Assuming the EU did not exist and that Europe was still made up of independent states how would things be different? Would Italy or Greece or Spain be rolling out the welcome wagon for them?

Workers rights are stronger where there are strong and organised trade unions . Employee rights in France and Germany are strong because of the unions standing firm from attacks by their governments attempting to strip them away due to EU budget rules . The TUC after the defeat of the miners lumped in with supporting the EU as some form of check/ protection against the Tories .