The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Streathamite]

You may be right.
I would (for example) prefer to be on the losing side than have to associate with racists in order to be on the winning side.
Others may see it differently, in fact they do or did, because in order to win the brexit vote you associated yourself with Farage didn't you?
(I don't actually mean you as you, because I don't know which way you voted).
If there is a case to be made that says 'I didn't vote for the Farage bit, but the other bits', then I have yet to hear it, but as a starter for ten one of the other bits was the land border in Ireland.

The argument that one should never, ever support something just because some racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does not mean I am a neoliberal either. But by your argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?

 

[Streathamite]

How could they do this? The bastards.

I repeat; that's 17.4 million 'bastards'. You will never, ever win their support for any future cause you may wish to fight for by starting from that point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The argument that one should never, ever support something just because some racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does not mean I am a neoliberal either. But by your argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?

Not quite the same argument, though. A racist person might support nationalising industry, but not for racist reasons. Their racism will be incidental to the belief in nationalisation. With brexit, a certain group of racist people voted for it for racist reasons.

 

[Streathamite]

With brexit, a certain group of racist people voted for it for racist reasons.

Sure, but it seems to me that philosophical was arguing that all - or nearly all - of that 17.4 million were motivated mainly by racism or xenophobia, or at the very least were dodgy enough on that issue to not care either way about fellow-travelling with racists.
I simply don't think that was how it worked at the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

The argument that one should never, ever support something just because some racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does not mean I am a neoliberal either. But by your argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?

He's rocking all over the world

 

[Streathamite]

He's rocking all over the world

OK, not that status quo

 

[The39thStep]

I repeat; that's 17.4 million 'bastards'. You will never, ever win their support for any future cause you may wish to fight for by starting from that point.

Agreed but him and other Remainers aren't interested in that they just want to feel morally smug and for us to feel their pain.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Then there was my work colleague who didn't vote because he decided he didn't know enough to make an informed decision. Why should his abstention mean the same as someone who just couldn't be arsed, or someone who couldn't make their mind up for some other reason, or someone functionally illiterate yet intelligent, or someone who forgot? Etc etc. Just because someone abstained does not mean they agree with the result necessarily.

 

[Streathamite]

Agreed but him and other Remainers aren't interested in that they just want to feel morally smug and for us to feel their pain.

Tragically, I can't help thinking that you're right. No bloody wonder Remain lost.

 

[The39thStep]

Tragically, I can't help thinking that you're right. No bloody wonder Remain lost.

I voted Leave but from a w/class perspective , I'm prepared to discuss the issue with those who voted Remain from a w/class perspective. The others on either side can do one as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Streathamite]

I voted Leave but from a w/class perspective , I'm prepared to discuss the issue with those who voted Remain from a w/class perspective. The others on either side can do one as far as I'm concerned.

yes, that's reasonable - I voted Remain because I felt it was entirely in the working classes interests to remian, and because i knew that a Tory-managed Brecit (as we have, and as was always likely) would be a tool to massively fuck us over.
e2a: yours is pretty much the only reasonable, progressive Leave perspective

 

[Marty1]

I voted Leave but from a w/class perspective , I'm prepared to discuss the issue with those who voted Remain from a w/class perspective. The others on either side can do one as far as I'm concerned.

Don’t tell him Pike!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Don’t tell him Pike!

You're one of the 'others', btw.

hth

 

[philosophical]

The argument that one should never, ever support something just because some racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does not mean I am a neoliberal either. But by your argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?

I am happy to be associated with some kind of effort to dilute nationalism.
Your labels for remainers satisfy you and bother me less, or certainly bother me less than the alternative presented in that binary choice.
I would rather not be associated with the nasty nationalistic foreigner hating brexiters than the alternative. You characterise one side in your terms, i characterise the other side in my terms.
Whether I am right or wrong to do so, the stark fact is that leave won the vote.
I don't see it as some kind of benevolent victory for essentially good people which I am beginning to think you do, nor do I see it as a victory for sections of society who were conned.
I see it as a victory for my enemies.

 

[philosophical]

Agreed but him and other Remainers aren't interested in that they just want to feel morally smug and for us to feel their pain.

Don't 'want to' but do.
You certainly don't need to feel my pain, empathy is over rated in some contexts.

 

[Streathamite]

I am happy to be associated with some kind of effort to dilute nationalism.
Your labels for remainers satisfy you and bother me less, or certainly bother me less than the alternative presented in that binary choice.
I would rather not be associated with the nasty nationalistic foreigner hating brexiters than the alternative. You characterise one side in your terms, i characterise the other side in my terms.
Whether I am right or wrong to do so, the stark fact is that leave won the vote.
I don't see it as some kind of benevolent victory for essentially good people which I am beginning to think you do, nor do I see it as a victory for sections of society who were conned.
I see it as a victory for my enemies.

oh ffs...look, stop inventing motivations, viewpoints and perspectives in me which never, ever existed. It's pathetic.
I don't see it as a'victory' for anyone, except the vulture capitalists who are about to well and truly shaft us all. Another reason why I voted....Remain.
But nor do I regard all that 17.4 million as my eternal 'enemies', simply because I know they are not, they are ordinary people just like you and me, and we still have to coexist.
And if we ever want to achieve meaningful, progressive change in this country, we will need the support of most of that 17.4 million, in order to do so. It's impoosible without it.
I want that change.
Do you? Or do you prefer the warm glow of righteous, morally pure, eternal defeat?

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't 'want to' but do.
You certainly don't need to feel my pain, empathy is over rated in some contexts.

Could you stop harping on about your pain, it's really very dull

 

[philosophical]

oh ffs...look, stop inventing motivations, viewpoints and perspectives in me which never, ever existed. It's pathetic.
I don't see it as a'victory' for anyone, except the vulture capitalists who are about to well and truly shaft us all. Another reason why I voted....Remain.
But nor do I regard all that 17.4 million as my eternal 'enemies', simply because I know they are not, they are ordinary people just like you and me, and we still have to coexist.
And if we ever want to achieve meaningful, progressive change in this country, we will need the support of most of that 17.4 million, in order to do so. It's impoosible without it.
I want that change.
Do you? Or do you prefer the warm glow of righteous, morally pure, eternal defeat?

Probably the eternal defeat option.
You mention earlier that work associates (tho I am retired) or neighbours, or those in my locale or pub may well be brexit voters, yet they are people just like me.
Well not quite, they are not just like me because I didn't vote brexit, nor are Tory voters just like me either.
If I interact with somebody face to face and they reveal themselves to be either a brexit voter or a Tory voter I would tell them directly that I feel antipathy towards them and if possible would prefer not to speak to them or have anything to do with them.
If I saw them knocked down in the road by a car or something I would offer to help on that basis, but I would not want to be involved with then according to the other norms of social currency.
To be honest I envy you a little bit, that you have the ability to reconcile yourself to other people, because I suspect that makes you happier than me. However it is identifying enemies that keeps me going, perhaps that is my demon to wrestle with I wouldn't know, I'm not especially religious.

 

[Streathamite]

Your labels for remainers satisfy you and bother me less, or certainly bother me less than the alternative presented in that binary choice.

oh ffs....
Are you currently embarked on a bid for a new world record by which the point can be missed?
Let me make it very simple for you, as it is clearly necessary; The EU is - unalterably and unavoidably - a 100% capitalist institution. That is the whole point of it, from its' inception - peace and prosperity through capitalism.
In its' rulebook - the acquis, and its' practices, it is also fundamentally neoliberal.
Therefore, by all of the arguments which you have used on this thread, you are either a neolieral capitalist, or perfectly happy abaout being a fellow-traveller for same. Are you?

 

[philosophical]

Could you stop harping on about your pain, it's really very dull

You are mistaken. I was not the one to invoke the 'pain' concept.
Would you agree that your meaningless intervention is really very dull?

 

[philosophical]

oh ffs....
Are you currently embarked on a bid for a new world record by which the point can be missed?
Let me make it very simple for you, as it is clearly necessary; The EU is - unalterably and unavoidably - a 100% capitalist institution. That is the whole point of it, from its' inception - peace and prosperity through capitalism.
In its' rulebook - the acquis, and its' practices, it is also fundamentally neoliberal.
Therefore, by all of the arguments which you have used on this thread, you are either a neolieral capitalist, or perfectly happy abaout being a fellow-traveller for same. Are you?

But it is not the 'whole point'.
It is also about avoiding conflict, reducing the effect of borders, sharing expertise, collaborating and co-operating where possible, working if possible to reduce the negative impact of climate change, offering the chance for people to travel and work and settle with fewer formal restrictions.
If you are suggesting the things I have listed (there are likely to be others I can't think of now) are only possible in a capitalist context then I disagree.
Peace through capitalism is not what I see as going on, but peace through a greater understanding of each other is how I view it.
Would you say that the existence of the Coronavirus reveals the absurdity of the nationalist approach and borders?

 

[Streathamite]

But it is not the 'whole point'.
It is also about avoiding conflict, reducing the effect of borders, sharing expertise, collaborating and co-operating where possible, working if possible to reduce the negative impact of climate change, offering the chance for people to travel and work and settle with fewer formal restrictions.
If you are suggesting the things I have listed (there are likely to be others I can't think of now) are only possible in a capitalist context then I disagree.

The point is; the people who set it up, the people who wrote its' rulebook, and the people who have been in charge of it at every step of the way, have always seen it as being 100% about capitalism. That is the whole point of it, and it has always been ever thus. The other - positive and laudable - things which you mention are merely incidental benefits, and side-effects if you like. They were things to be achieved through capitalism, and the possibility of achieving them via any other route was simply never on the table. It was and is simply inconceivable.
That is exactly what the EU has always been about, from the POV of the particular class of people whose grand projet it has always been.
To suggest any different is simply to deny the historical facts of the matter.

 

[Pickman's model]

You are mistaken. I was not the one to invoke the 'pain' concept.
Would you agree that your meaningless intervention is really very dull?

Your pain
Your revulsion at brexit
Are you utterly unable to discuss things when people use different words from those you expressed your views in?

Just stfu about brexit

 

[philosophical]

Your pain
Your revulsion at brexit
Are you utterly unable to discuss things when people use different words from those you expressed your views in?

Just stfu about brexit

Shut the fuck up talking about brexit on a thread about brexit?
How is that supposed to work?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Ain’t no black in the EU flag. Remainers voted to kill black people. Own it.

philosophical is a fucking twat.

 

[Streathamite]

Peace through capitalism is not what I see as going on, but peace through a greater understanding of each other is how I view it.

The EU really isn't that, and never has been. That's just simply dripping wet liberal idealistic wank, and yet another reason why liberalism is an irrelevant political creed.

 

[Streathamite]

Probably the eternal defeat option.
You mention earlier that work associates (tho I am retired) or neighbours, or those in my locale or pub may well be brexit voters, yet they are people just like me.
Well not quite, they are not just like me because I didn't vote brexit, nor are Tory voters just like me either.
If I interact with somebody face to face and they reveal themselves to be either a brexit voter or a Tory voter I would tell them directly that I feel antipathy towards them and if possible would prefer not to speak to them or have anything to do with them.
If I saw them knocked down in the road by a car or something I would offer to help on that basis, but I would not want to be involved with then according to the other norms of social currency.
To be honest I envy you a little bit, that you have the ability to reconcile yourself to other people, because I suspect that makes you happier than me. However it is identifying enemies that keeps me going, perhaps that is my demon to wrestle with I wouldn't know, I'm not especially religious.

By your logic, anybody who ever disagrees with you on any political issue, ever, is your 'enemy', implacable and eternal.
If you take that to its' logical conclusion. You are going to end up in a very small army, facing a vastly larger one. And losing every time.

 

[philosophical]

By your logic, anybovdy who ever disagrees with you on any political issue, ever, is your 'enemy', implacable and eternal.
If you take that to its' logical conclusion. You are going to end up in a very small army, facing a vastly larger one. And losing every time.

Not every disagreement. Mainly Tories and Brexit voters.
I am probably a lot older than you, and I am way beyond reconciliation with Tories and brexit voters. I used to be a person that sought common ground, now I see no reason to.
That you are able to do it is impressive.
I doubt I will ever be part of an army, more a lone sniper type.

 

[Pickman's model]

Shut the fuck up talking about brexit on a thread about brexit?
How is that supposed to work?

very simply. find a new hobby horse as you've nothing new to say about this one

 

[Pickman's model]

Not every disagreement. Mainly Tories and Brexit voters.
I am probably a lot older than you, and I am way beyond reconciliation with Tories and brexit voters. I used to be a person that sought common ground, now I see no reason to.
That you are able to do it is impressive.
I doubt I will ever be part of an army, more a lone sniper type.

The remainers' anders breivik