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The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

inva said:
OK you just innocently asked me if I'm a racist in response to me attacking the EU's treatment of refugees :rolleyes: no implication there.
Why would I have a plan for the land border in Ireland? This might surprise you but I don't expect to be consulted during the negotiations.
Click to expand...
The reason I asked why you would have a plan for the land border in Ireland is because you voted for it.
 
philosophical said:
I am intrigued by your use of the word 'core'.
Are you aware of all the Mail and Express headlines, and the Farage breaking point poster?
Click to expand...
oh ffs. :facepalm:
Yes, I am fully aware of those headlines, and that poster. I am fully aware of how the Leave campaign went about getting those votes, and of the propaganda they and their tabloid mates put out. But that doesn't mean that was what was also going on in the minds of voters, as
And - crucially - that still doesn't mean that the 17.4 million who voted to leave were primarily or mostly motivated by racism or xenophobia. They swimply weren't.
For the Labour heartlands outside the big cities (which is where the campaign was won and lost), it was more of a sense that they felt abandoned and left behind, and that this country was no loger one they had a stake in. They were conned by Leave into believing that that was the fault of the EU.

Here's a quick campaigning heads-up for you; calling all those who disagree with you racists or bigots is an absolutely lousy way of winning therm over to your side. That, and the sneering, patronising tone of Remain campaigners, cost them as much as anything else did.
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
Brexit is and was a right-wing enterprise. Nothing more. Nothing less. There was and is nothing democratic about it. So don't let people forget those facts when it all goes to pot.
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Agreed, but
a) the EU is a 100% neoliberal, capitalist institution, so that makes the EU pretty right wing, It's very difficult for anyone with genuinely progressive po.itics to be that positive about the EU
and
b) in the minds of the 17.4 million who voted for it - and all those millions who voted UKIP in elections between 2010 and 2015 - there was everything democratc about it. What on earth was 'undemocratic' about that referendum?
 
philosophical said:
The reason I asked why you would have a plan for the land border in Ireland is because you voted for it.
Click to expand...
OK, I don't have a plan for the land border in Ireland and to make matters worse I don't have any intention of coming up with one.
(I'm assuming you've now conceded the other point so that's progress)
 
Streathamite said:
oh ffs. :facepalm:
Yes, I am fully aware of those headlines, and that poster. I am fully aware of how the Leave campaign went about getting those votes, and of the propaganda they and their tabloid mates put out. But that doesn't mean that was what was also going on in the minds of voters, as
And - crucially - that still doesn't mean that the 17.4 million who voted to leave were primarily or mostly motivated by racism or xenophobia. They swimply weren't.
For the Labour heartlands outside the big cities (which is where the campaign was won and lost), it was more of a sense that they felt abandoned and left behind, and that this country was no loger one they had a stake in. They were conned by Leave into believing that that was the fault of the EU.

Here's a quick campaigning heads-up for you; calling all those who disagree with you racists or bigots is an absolutely lousy way of winning therm over to your side. That, and the sneering, patronising tone of Remain campaigners, cost them as much as anything else did.
Click to expand...

I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
The damage is now done.
The reason I say all that is because general elections are for a relatively short time, brexit is forever.
I am also in a mixed marriage with mixed race children and am hyper-sensitive to the 'ain't no black in the Union Jack' mob.
I believe to say to them they were conned is patronising, anyway they say they knew what they were voting for.
Fuck 'em. I wan't no reconciliation with them, to me there is no compromise with antipathy that arises because of the accident of somebody's birth.
 
Streathamite said:
why is it a voter's job to come up with a plan for the Irish border? isn't that precisely what we pay the parliamentarians to do? :confused:
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No. I believe that response is to avoid responsibility for what you voted for. Are you aware that many brexit voters still say they knew what they were voting for, hence my challenge regarding the land border in Ireland.
 
I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.

From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit. So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain. Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole EU. How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example? Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.
 
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kabbes said:
I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.

From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit. So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain. Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole a EU. How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example? Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.
Click to expand...
You don't have to have known every detail but surely it is not unrealistic to expect at least 1 person out of 17.4 million to have even the slightest idea how any of this was supposed to work before putting a vote to the country.
 
philosophical said:
I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
The damage is now done.
The reason I say all that is because general elections are for a relatively short time, brexit is forever.
I am also in a mixed marriage with mixed race children and am hyper-sensitive to the 'ain't no black in the Union Jack' mob.
I believe to say to them they were conned is patronising, anyway they say they knew what they were voting for.
Fuck 'em. I wan't no reconciliation with them, to me there is no compromise with antipathy that arises because of the accident of somebody's birth.
Click to expand...
Their vote was not a 'sneer at you', however much you may wish to interpret it as that.
In the Labour heartlands, it was exactly as I've explained it - anger at being discarded and left behind by the big cities and the South. It was not a vote driven by racism and xenophobia - or not, primarily, anyway
And unless you begin to understand things from their perspective, you can never hope to get them voting how you want them to in the future. Those voters are ordinary people, just like me and just like you. Some of them live in your street, work in your workplace, drink in your local.

So instead, you are stuck in your political gthetto of writing off 17.4 million voters at thick, ignorant racists and xenophobes. Way to go, chanp. That'll really get you results in the future - Not!
 
kabbes said:
I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.

From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit. So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain. Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole a EU. How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example? Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.
Click to expand...

This is of course rubbish.
Here is the voting slip:

1602430354851.png
The choice was remain or leave.
Remain was about continuing to participate in the complexities of the EU as previously.
Leave was about change.
With the EU over there and the UK over the other there.
Once you have left somewhere there is some kind of line of demarcation in between usually known as a border.
The word 'leave' is on the ballot paper.
If you vote leave what other interpretation is there that you voted for a line of demarcation?
That 'leave' actually means 'remain'?
 
kabbes said:
I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.

From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit. So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain. Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole a EU. How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example? Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.
Click to expand...
Certain things were known, though. That the US would be pushing for its lower food standards in a trade deal with the UK, for instance, was known pre-referendum. That the border on the island of Ireland would be a major sticking point was known pre-referendum. That a vote for brexit would empower a certain type of r/w nationalism was being shouted about by many people pre-referendum, and that this would lead to a rise in various forms of racism and xenophobia was also feared by many pre-referendum.

It's disingenuous to pretend that much of this stuff is any kind of a surprise. It was sadly inevitable.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Certain things were known, though. That the US would be pushing for its lower food standards in a trade deal with the UK, for instance, was known pre-referendum. That the border on the island of Ireland would be a major sticking point was known pre-referendum. That a vote for brexit would empower a certain type of r/w nationalism was being shouted about by many people pre-referendum, and that this would lead to a rise in various forms of racism and xenophobia was also feared by many pre-referendum.

It's disingenuous to pretend that much of this stuff is any kind of a surprise. It was sadly inevitable.
Click to expand...
It was made clear in the many interviews and mail outs during the referendum that a clear option for leaving the EU involved remaining in the EEA. That was actually suggested as the best, most likely pathway. If it had been taken, we would not now be facing any of these issues about borders (or, indeed, food standards). It’s not the fault of those who voted for the principle they were asked to opine on that those who subsequently were tasked with implementing it chose red lines they never actually put forward in the referendum campaign itself.
 
Streathamite said:
Their vote was not a 'sneer at you', however much you may wish to interpret it as that.
In the Labour heartlands, it was exactly as I've explained it - anger at being discarded and left behind by the big cities and the South. It was not a vote driven by racism and xenophobia - or not, primarily, anyway
And unless you begin to understand things from their perspective, you can never hope to get them voting how you want them to in the future. Those voters are ordinary people, just like me and just like you. Some of them live in your street, work in your workplace, drink in your local.

So instead, you are stuck in your political gthetto of writing off 17.4 million voters at thick, ignorant racists and xenophobes. Way to go, chanp. That'll really get you results in the future - Not!
Click to expand...

I am way too old to be bothered with persuading those who jab the finger at me and say 'you lost get over it'.
What is there to understand from that perspective?
I am impressed that you know 'exactly' what was going on.
I believe I know what was going on too, maybe not as exactly as you.
If I have any part to play now it is to highlight the chite as often as possible so those who say 'you lost get over it' can be countered by my saying 'you won get on with it'.
I accept that this may not seem a conciliatory or wholesome stance to you, but you mentioned the future and my future is all about confrontation I'm afraid.
 
Streathamite said:
What on earth was 'undemocratic' about that referendum?
Click to expand...
Democracy should be about more than just a show of hands. There should be full, frank, honest, open, well-balanced discussion and debate. If a decision is to be made then it should be clear what happens next, what the consequences are. If we are talking about a UK-wide referendum then we should be clear what will happen when, e.g., Scotland and Northern Ireland vote differently to Wales and England. Then there's the issue of the scope of the franchise, 18 years and over? 16 years and over? Something else? What about UK citizens abroad, permanently or temporarily so? More importantly, what about EU citizens or other recent-ish immigrants over here, our neighbours, living here, working here, with family here, or dependants? Then there's the whole topic of who asks the question, how is it phrased, what does it mean exactly? If the result is close what is the next course of action, more debate, another vote, vote again in 5 years time, 10 years time, never?

That's just off the top of my head. That's enough, surely?
 
philosophical said:
I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
The damage is now done.
The reason I say all that is because general elections are for a relatively short time, brexit is forever.
I am also in a mixed marriage with mixed race children and am hyper-sensitive to the 'ain't no black in the Union Jack' mob.
I believe to say to them they were conned is patronising, anyway they say they knew what they were voting for.
Fuck 'em. I wan't no reconciliation with them, to me there is no compromise with antipathy that arises because of the accident of somebody's birth.
Click to expand...
I'd add to my earlier reply to this post; do you realise that the whole approach you're taking here - fuck everyone who didn't agree with me entirely on this issue, they're evil, and they're The Enemy - is just about the most surefire, certain, guaranteed way to ensure you end up on the losing side in every political battle you may have in the future?
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
Democracy should be about more than just a show of hands. There should be full, frank, honest, open, well-balanced discussion and debate. If a decision is to be made then it should be clear what happens next, what the consequences are. If we are talking about a UK-wide referendum then we should be clear what will happen when, e.g., Scotland and Northern Ireland vote differently to Wales and England. Then there's the issue of the scope of the franchise, 18 years and over? 16 years and over? Something else? What about UK citizens abroad, permanently or temporarily so? More importantly, what about EU citizens or other recent-ish immigrants over here, our neighbours, living here, working here, with family here, or dependants? Then there's the whole topic of who asks the question, how is it phrased, what does it mean exactly? If the result is close what is the next course of action, more debate, another vote, vote again in 5 years time, 10 years time, never?

That's just off the top of my head. That's enough, surely?
Click to expand...

Quite. I’d go further and argue that referendums are fundamentally undemocratic because they force the voters to make an artificial binary choice and then fix the answer in stone without the possibility for post-referendum wiggle room.
 
Streathamite said:
I'd add to my earlier reply to this post; do you realise that the whole approach you're taking here - fuck everyone who didn't agree with me entirely on this issue, they're evil, and they're The Enemy - is just about the most surefire, certain, guaranteed way to ensure you end up on the losing side in every political battle you may have in the future?
Click to expand...

You may be right.
I would (for example) prefer to be on the losing side than have to associate with racists in order to be on the winning side.
Others may see it differently, in fact they do or did, because in order to win the brexit vote you associated yourself with Farage didn't you?
(I don't actually mean you as you, because I don't know which way you voted).
If there is a case to be made that says 'I didn't vote for the Farage bit, but the other bits', then I have yet to hear it, but as a starter for ten one of the other bits was the land border in Ireland.
 
philosophical said:
I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
The damage is now done.
The reason I say all that is because general elections are for a relatively short time, brexit is forever.
I am also in a mixed marriage with mixed race children and am hyper-sensitive to the 'ain't no black in the Union Jack' mob.
I believe to say to them they were conned is patronising, anyway they say they knew what they were voting for.
Fuck 'em. I wan't no reconciliation with them, to me there is no compromise with antipathy that arises because of the accident of somebody's birth.
Click to expand...

Their vote was a sneer at me,
Click to expand...

How could they do this? The bastards.
 
Winot said:
Quite. I’d go further and argue that referendums are fundamentally undemocratic because they force the voters to make an artificial binary choice and then fix the answer in stone without the possibility for post-referendum wiggle room.
Click to expand...
Some of what has happened since the referendum has been deeply undemocratic. A certain kind of hard brexit has been touted as the only 'true' brexit, with softer options opposed because they don't 'deliver' the referendum result. Sadly Labour was complicit in allowing this line to take hold.

So anyone who objects to this brexit, the one actually happening, none of whose details were in the referendum, and proposes instead, for instance, not doing it, is widely branded as opposed to democracy, thinking the proles are thickoes, or whatever. We're locked in to a particularly stupid and destructive and divisive process, and a government that only received a minority of the votes in the election can claim a mandate to do its bidding not only from the election but also from the referendum.

Dunno about the 17.4 m. But the 12 million or so who voted for Johnson's tories should have a long fucking look at themselves.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Some of what has happened since the referendum has been deeply undemocratic. A certain kind of hard brexit has been touted as the only 'true' brexit, with softer options opposed because they don't 'deliver' the referendum result. Sadly Labour was complicit in allowing this line to take hold.

So anyone who objects to this brexit, the one actually happening, none of whose details were in the referendum, and proposes instead, for instance, not doing it, is widely branded as opposed to democracy, thinking the proles are thickoes, or whatever. We're locked in to a particularly stupid and destructive and divisive process, and a government that only received a minority of the votes in the election can claim a mandate to do its bidding not only from the election but also from the referendum.

Dunno about the 17.4 m. But the 12 million or so who voted for Johnson's tories should have a long fucking look at themselves.
Click to expand...
It's always good to have deeply derivative and much repeated points made like they were in some way worth listening to again
 
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