The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[The39thStep]

One thing British politicians are all too apt to forget is that mainland Europeans do follow what's happening in Britain, so their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side makes their job of negotiating the future all the more difficult.

Tempting to think that but the official line is :

Meanwhile, the President of the European Council, Charles Michel, applauded the decision to prolong the negotiations. Michel, who chairs the European Union's summits, told France Inter Radio: "We must do everything in our power to make an agreement possible. We must support a good agreement".

The President of the European Council also said that the European Union would maintain its "composure" when an agreement was close.

 

[weltweit]

I would love to know more about how the negotiations are being undertaken, what techniques are being used, how much has already been agreed, conditional on everything being agreed, and the specifics of what these final disagreements are.

 

[sleaterkinney]

My favourite stat of the day: HM customs only has 16 more staff today than they did in 2015.

 

[ska invita]

Their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side

Talking of which I'm genuinely baffled by that Get Ready To Eat Turnips etc graphic from the Mail.
Was that a spoof?
If not, what is the thinking behind publishing it?
Isn't it a bit Project Fear for the Mail?

 

[Roadkill]

Tempting to think that but the official line is :

Of course it is. It's not in their interests for this to end in 'no deal.' Doesn't mean that Britain hasn't weakened its own position through its politicians' (and journalists') habit of putting their foot in it, deliberately or otherwise.

 

[Pickman's model]

Talking of which I'm genuinely baffled by that Get Ready To Eat Turnips etc graphic from the Mail.
Was that a spoof?
If not, what is the thinking behind publishing it?
Isn't it a bit Project Fear for the Mail?

When they carry an article about foraging you'll know it's all gone to shit

 

[The39thStep]

Of course it is. It's not in their interests for this to end in 'no deal.' Doesn't mean that Britain hasn't weakened its own position through its politicians' (and journalists') habit of putting their foot in it, deliberately or otherwise.

I really doubt that any media coverage influences the negotiations tbh .

 

[Roadkill]

I really doubt that any media coverage influences the negotiations tbh .

Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did. I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip. That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...

 

[The39thStep]

Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did. I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip. That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...

I hate it , and your right re Ireland where issues about Brexit have resulted in some anti Brit stuff .

 

[Pickman's model]

Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did. I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip. That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...

You cannot hope to bribe or twist -
Thank God - the British journalist
But seeing what they'll do
Unbribed there's no occasion to

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

One thing British politicians are all too apt to forget is that mainland Europeans do follow what's happening in Britain, so their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side makes their job of negotiating the future all the more difficult.

Does Merkel get her syrups from the same geeza that Trump does?

 

[brogdale]

Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did. I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip. That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...

The Millwallification of regional geopolitics.

 

[Roadkill]

You cannot hope to bribe or twist -
Thank God - the British journalist
But seeing what they'll do
Unbribed there's no occasion to

'If it has fallen to my destiny to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it. I am ready for the fight.'

 

[Badgers]

British food trapped in Europe as port chaos spreads

Shipping lines are refusing to release goods diverted to European ports

www.thegrocer.co.uk

For some small suppliers, the diversions into Europe are costing “hundreds of thousands of pounds a month”, said Dominic Goudie, head of international trade at the FDF, with the impacts now having a material effect on their ability to prepare for next year.

Supermarkets are also facing similar difficulties, with some reporting increased shipping costs of 25% week on week. They are urging the government to act. BRC director of food & sustainability Andrew Opie has written to transport secretary Grant Shapps to urge him to “take all action possible to clear the logjam” and allow goods to flow seamlessly into the UK.

 

[William of Walworth]

I would love to know more about how the negotiations are being undertaken, what techniques are being used, how much has already been agreed, conditional on everything being agreed, and the specifics of what these final disagreements are.

I reckon lengthy chats about turnips would be a good deal less boring ....

 

[TopCat]

For liberals, Brexit is a hard lesson in the politics of resentment | Nesrine Malik

The centre-left failed to confront the increasingly toxic discourse around migration until it was too late, says the Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik

www.theguardian.com

 

[brogdale]

For liberals, Brexit is a hard lesson in the politics of resentment | Nesrine Malik

The centre-left failed to confront the increasingly toxic discourse around migration until it was too late, says the Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik

www.theguardian.com

This is particularly sloppy:

That is how to understand Brexit: not an irrational rightwing populism, not a derangement of post-truth politics, but the predictable outcome of a concerted political and media campaign that capitalised on a colossal failure of our economic model.

That might be one interpretation of the motivation(s) that lay behind some voters decision for 'Leave', but understanding Brexit requires a clear focus on those interests that engineered the resentment or racism to effect the superstructural change they desired.

 

[brogdale]

Following the discussions on here, yesterday, about on-going the stability of the Johnson regime, it will be interesting to see if any/how many backwoodsmen like Gale actually join with calls for Johnson's replacement if the outcome is ND...

 

[Pickman's model]

This is particularly sloppy:


That might be one interpretation of the motivation(s) that lay behind some voters decision for 'Leave', but understanding Brexit requires a clear focus on those interests that engineered the resentment or racism to effect the superstructural change they desired.

to be fair it is the guardian

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is particularly sloppy:


That might be one interpretation of the motivation(s) that lay behind some voters decision for 'Leave', but understanding Brexit requires a clear focus on those interests that engineered the resentment or racism to effect the superstructural change they desired.

It's also important not to exaggerate the numbers wrt who voted for what. A lot of older, (small or big C) conservative, English people voted for Brexit. Homeowners with no mortgage (necessarily older, of course) voted strongly leave; retired people voted strongly leave. A minority of young people of any class or political persuasion voted for brexit. So there's a question there about why many of those who are most affected by failures of the economic model, who have the biggest stake in fixing those failures, didn't vote heavily leave, while many of those least affected by the failures did.

I don't think failures of the economic model are a good fit with explaining the brexit vote. At best, they provide only a partial explanation. And I agree that engineered resentment played at least as big a role. That resentment took hold among some parts of the population, while failing to find traction among others.

 

[Pickman's model]

Following the discussions on here, yesterday, about on-going the stability of the Johnson regime, it will be interesting to see if any/how many backwoodsmen like Gale actually join with calls for Johnson's replacement if the outcome is ND...


View attachment 243446

View attachment 243447

for brutus is an honourable man...

 

[brogdale]

for brutus is an honourable man...

Et tu, Galey?

 

[kabbes]

I’ve read a lot of research recently that explains the how of the Brexit vote pretty well but doesn’t even engage with who made it happen and why. This is a tendency of a more sociological lens on it, I suppose. The political, structural underpinnings are just not in scope. The article above is a penny-seat version of that.

 

[MickiQ]

You think the Tory press will be praising Johnson when the images show empty shelves in shops and lorries lined up across Kent as if it were some kind of misjudged Guinness World Record attempt?

I'm pretty sure that the Tory press will go into overdrive to try and pin the blame on the EU with Merkel, Macron and especially Barnier getting the voodoo doll treatment but at the end of the day the British Press and/or Public are utterly powerless when it comes to having any effect on these people and any decisions they may make.
Sooner or later the spotlight will fall on BoZo.

 

[brogdale]

I’ve read a lot of research recently that explains the how of the Brexit vote pretty well but doesn’t even engage with who made it happen and why. This is a tendency of a more sociological lens on it, I suppose. The political, structural underpinnings are just not in scope. The article above is a penny-seat version of that.

I've bored people with this before, but I do think it is telling that elements on the right in this country were organising anti (then) EEC lobby groups/think tanks some 12 years before the UK acceded to the supra-state in 1973.

 

[Kaka Tim]

johnson is basically going to have to choose which abject political failure he wants hung around his neck - giving in to the EU conditions, or several months of "no deal" chaos, followed by giving in to the EU conditions.
The UK has run out of road to kick the can down and the impossiblism of the UKs brexit position - which goes back to Mays "red lines" on freedom of movement - is finally going to be exposed.

 

[SpookyFrank]

johnson is basically going to have to choose which abject political failure he wants hung around his neck - giving in to the EU conditions, or several months of "no deal" chaos, followed by giving in to the EU conditions.
The UK has run out of road to kick the can down and the impossiblism of the UKs brexit position - which goes back to Mays "red lines" on freedom of movement - is finally going to be exposed.

Won't be him that has to deal with the chaos and giving in phase, I suspect. Could be a proper disaster capitalism fanatic like Gove instead, which would make the incompetence and disinterest of Johnson look like paradise.

 

[Pickman's model]

johnson is basically going to have to choose which abject political failure he wants hung around his neck - giving in to the EU conditions, or several months of "no deal" chaos, followed by giving in to the EU conditions.
The UK has run out of road to kick the can down and the impossiblism of the UKs brexit position - which goes back to Mays "red lines" on freedom of movement - is finally going to be exposed.

johnson will be exposed as the fraud he is

 

[SpookyFrank]

johnson will be exposed as the fraud he is

That's been a matter of public record for some time now. Hasn't put a dent in him.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's been a matter of public record for some time now. Hasn't put a dent in him.

not sure you got the dad's army reference