SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I wasn't upset by the experience though it did make me think that if I were the young woman in the Comrade Delta case then it would have been quite intimidating to be on the receiving end of it. I just found it odd, especially considering that her job is basically to win over people to her cause. Do you really think that being extremely rude to people over nothing is a good method of proselytising?
It reminded me of the sort of people who you figure out exactly who they are when you go to the bar to order a pint because they are incapable of ordering one without being rude to the person pulling the pint. IIRC Anna Chen said that Rees and German treated service staff pretty badly.
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charlie mowbray
The Enforcer
Trappist, why don't you do like real Trappists do and take the vow of silence. Better than that, just plain fuck off, you patronising git.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
no, let him speak long and loud. It tells people of the character of those who still remain party loyalists.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I think you may have the wrong thread.
This one's about some Sealed Knot re-enactment of the WRP's end days.
charlie mowbray
The Enforcer
On reflection, Dot, I agree. Let him condemn himself out of his own mouth.
So I'm a cunt. That's good to know.
It's also very kind of you to tell me what I'm allowed to think, and even what I actually think. Being a cunt I could never work it out for myself.
Fuck off you smug, sanctimonious pratt. No end of people are "treated really badly within personal sexual relationships." Just because it's painful doesn't mean it's criminal, and to suggest I've made a joke of it is just bizarre.
The Disputes Committee weren't chosen because they were friends of Smith. Incidentally, just knowing him (however well) doesn't necessarily make them friends. They were elected because they were trusted to do a difficult job. When they considered the question of how knowing Smith and not knowing comrade W might affect their decisions they didn't consider how it would look to others. Sometimes smart people make stupid choices, this one was spectacularly so.
Where you see a stitch up I see a cock up. Though I'd be interested to know how many friends/colleagues you have who you think would give you a pass on rape. Not just turn a blind eye, but actively cover it up.
Without details of the accusation to go on I can only base an opinion on the limited facts available. For me the key is not one member of the committee took the view that Smith was guilty of rape. The only dissenting view, "conduct unbecoming," was the result of comrade X coming forward. At no time did either of the opposition factions make a case for Smith being guilty.
If you believe the SWP wrecks every progressive movement it touches then you're more likely to believe five women and two men would conspire to cover up compelling evidence of rape and that one of them would maintain the conspiracy having left the party after two of the bitterest faction fights in its history.
Either way it's an opinion/belief based on prejudice/faith nothing more.
Naturally there are no circumstances in which the cartoon villains of the SWP could have been compassionate towards the young woman and contemptuous of the man who couldn't keep his dick inside his trousers.
tony collins
Active Member
You do realise that comrade spurski chose two formulations, and that formulation was for you to use if you don't believe she was raped, right?
No. That doesn't account for the bullying that the victims went through at the hands of their SWP 'comrades'. It doesn't account for the bullying and intimidation meted out to opponents of Smith. It doesn't account for the attempts to drive the victims' supporters out of the party. It doesn't account for the way one of the women was shouted at in the street. It doesn't account for the extremely obnoxious phone calls made by organisers to opponents. It doesn't account for the threats of violence.
A cock-up would look markedly different. A revolutionary party, interested in self-reflection and political growth, would also look different.
While there are still people like you, apologising for rape and for women being treated like shit, still clinging onto the 'we have better morality' nonsense (which is what you mean when you approvingly say that no one on the DC thought Smith was guilty of rape - the same committee that felt it was appropriate to ask "is it fair to say you like a drink?", which should surely show you that they were not fit to conclude anything) the SWP doesn't deserve to survive and any woman would be forgiven for not wanting to listen to a word you have to say about women's oppression and liberation.
And however much you might smugly talk about being on this or that demo, never ever ever let yourself forget that on that demo with you will be people who are disgusted at how you treated those women, and how you chose to stay in a party that not only covered up the rapes, it worked hard to ensure that no one would believe the women either.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
You were right.
charlie mowbray
The Enforcer
What are you on about, you morally bankrupt specimen. you've failed to answer any of the assertions about bullying, threatening of members, etc etc.
https://i0.wp.com/i3.birminghammail.co.uk/incoming/article221874.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/benny-hill-198540674.jpg
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Huh?
Trotsky007
Member
Trappist you are confusing what happened with why it happened.
There was no call to re-investigate Smith by the faction but not because we thought he was innocent. There were two reasons - one tactical and one from respect. The latter was because the woman in question did not want to go through the awful process again and she did not trust the party apparatus to organise a fair hearing. Out of respect to her we did not push it. This respect is also why the two comrades on the panel who did break ranks have not gone back over it in public. I think this shows some humanity on their part even if it means Smith gains in some way by their silence.
The tactical aspect was that we knew there were people who might be up for changing future rules/ procedures but had lots of respect for the members of the original panel and didn't want to say or do anything which might be taken to indicate a lack of trust in them. Sometimes you need even flaky allies in a battle and so to try and keep/ attract these we said no to re-opening the case.
There was no call to re-investigate Smith by the faction but not because we thought he was innocent. There were two reasons - one tactical and one from respect. The latter was because the woman in question did not want to go through the awful process again and she did not trust the party apparatus to organise a fair hearing. Out of respect to her we did not push it. This respect is also why the two comrades on the panel who did break ranks have not gone back over it in public. I think this shows some humanity on their part even if it means Smith gains in some way by their silence.
The tactical aspect was that we knew there were people who might be up for changing future rules/ procedures but had lots of respect for the members of the original panel and didn't want to say or do anything which might be taken to indicate a lack of trust in them. Sometimes you need even flaky allies in a battle and so to try and keep/ attract these we said no to re-opening the case.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Who the fuck is this even supposed to be?
comrade spurski
Well-Known Member
Delta was accused of abuse within a personal relationship and then accused rape.
You and others seek to down play it down as a lovers tiff...that's what my comment of "treated really badly within a personal relationship" was refering to.
That they decided to treat it as a lovers tiff show they were keen to make the issue go away...that makes it a whitewash in the eyes of everyone not blinded by party loyalty
You claim that they didn't think about how it might look to others that they (his friends) were investigating the issue...this just shows how incapable they were of investigating this issue and why they should never have done so and why their findings were unbelievably unjust.
His FRIENDS questioned the woman about her drinking habits...why?
That sort of questioning is not a cock up, it is sexist filth which is used to imply she was to blame.
You say the key for you is that "not one of the committee took the view he was guilty of rape"...how the fuck could they know? They had none of the skills or tools necessary to investigate...and their questioning was fucking appalling when you consider they questioned the woman's drinking habits.
Imagine in your work place that a senior manager in his late 40s had a sexual relationship with a woman working in the same office, which started when she was 17 yrs old.
Imagine that she made the same allegations against the manager that was made against Delta. Then imagine your reaction when you found out that the people investigating it were all his friends and or colleagues whereas no one who knew the woman was on the panel.
Then imagine your reaction when you hear that she was questioned about her drinking habits.
Then you hear that they (this panel of friends with no training in rape investigation ) decided the manager was not guilty of rape.
After imagine finding out that another woman came forward and said she'd experienced sexual harassment by the same manager and she was told that she could not return to her original job as this would make things difficult in the workplace.
Then imagine finding out that two workers had been suspended for organising against this injustice.
In the meantime the manager concerned goes to the regional meeting and claims he is the victim of a smear campaign from a rival firm and that he received a foot stamping ovation.
Finally imagine that after people had been forced to quit, after people had been sidelined, lied about and ostracised that the manager finally quit and only then did the firm say he had a case to answer but they were unable to do anything as he had already left....but they still kept following him on twitter and senior managers still remained in personal contact with him.
If you think that firm deserves the benefit of the doubt you are a cunt.
I you think they behaved reprehensibly then you are a hypocrite.
One of Delta's well used comments about racists claiming not to be racists was if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and sounds like a duck then its a duck...the same is true of you and your odious views.
Trotsky007
Member
I don't know if he was but I'm intrigued as to what made you ask?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Given he was at posho/rich foreigner student sussex he was more likely to be in aufheben or some ultra left ambassadors daughter group.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Oi I went to Sussex and membership of Aufheben was far from compulsory!
Cheers and thanks for the stroll down memory lane - Louis MacNeice
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Probably means he paid a quid and signed a SWSS form or something.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Interesting? Potential poster spot too.
Damn. Where did I put my copy of The smallest mass party in the world?
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
good man butchers
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