SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Trotsky007]

I was in the SWP during the madness and I didn't want Smith expelled until after he had been disciplined. This was because I wanted him properly shown up for what he had done. I was proved right when, following his resignation, some twats argued that he had been 'hounded out' and had never actually been found guilty so therefore he was innocent. OMG and WTF. etc etc

To say that the following conference changed the policies is really missing the point. Everyone who had a backbone had resigned by that point. Those making the changes had already done the damage, already chased good comrades out of the party and already shown that they didn't care about the awful sexist rubbish their supporters were coming out with. So why should they be trusted when they had spent a year fighting against some of the very changes they then said they had always supported? Liars and scumbags. They reminded me of the sharks in finding Nemo.

 

[Trappist]

IDOOP - you - lost the argument within the party. Anyone staying in after that is a sad and unprincipled specimen.

The only reason there wont be a repeat is that it is mindbogglingly unlikely that any young woman would join your rump sect ever again.

Actually despite being a member of the faction I was glad it was defeated. If it had won Smith would have been back as a full member at the start of this year. In answer to Trotsky007, Smith was definitely hounded out of the party. A bloody good job too as I don't think we'd have coped with a panel hand-picked by RS21 deciding not to expel him (unlikely, but not inconceivable).

As to staying on after the defeat of IDOOP, I prefer pragmatic. As would, I think, the majority of RS21 comrades who stayed. That includes two who share responsibility for getting this so bloody wrong in the first and second places. RS21 is a real political organisation made up of real people with not altogether perfect pasts, it's not the Simon pure sect of your imagination. Get over yourself!

We're recruiting okay thank you. True, where we lost entire SWSS groups in 2013 it's been between difficult and impossible (eg Goldsmiths and Edinburgh). Where we retained a core we recovered (spectacularly in the case of Sussex) and we've established new groups too. It's not brilliant or even very good, but nor is it the shite of your fantasies.

 

[belboid]

it's not the Simon pure sect of your imagination. Get over yourself!

I think no such thing. But I am delighted we have nothing to do with such hypocritical wankers as you. You have no principles, which is why you are happy to sit alongside the scum who tried to cover up sexual abuse.

 

[Trappist]

And yet you're content to sit alongside that "scum" in RS21. Go figure.

 

[belboid]

And yet you're content to sit alongside that "scum" in RS21. Go figure.

Funny how you are so keen to move the topic away from your ongoing support for those who covered up the abuse in the first place. Your inability to face the truth of what you are doing at least shows the SWP has no chance of recovery. You are dead, but are too foolish to notice.

 

[Trappist]

I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing - enjoying watching you denounce members of your own organisation as unprincipled and scum then squirming as these uncomfortable facts are pointed out to you. It's childish and wouldn't be worth it if you weren't so lacking in awareness of what a self righteous Onanist you are.

 

[belboid]

I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing - enjoying watching you denounce members of your own organisation as unprincipled and scum then squirming as these uncomfortable facts are pointed out to you. It's childish and wouldn't be worth it if you weren't so lacking in awareness of what a self righteous Onanist you are.

Much better people who recognised they fucked up then those who refuse to accept that fact, or do anything about it.

Now, fuck off, haven't you got a rape to help cover up again?

 

[Trappist]

Much better people who recognised they fucked up then those who refuse to accept that fact, or do anything about it.

Now, fuck off, haven't you got a rape to help cover up again?

I never fucked up, nor did I cover anything up. Speaking of which, why don't you have a word with Pat Stack who'll no doubt tell you there was no rape (his finding, not mine), or Hannah Dee who thought it was perfectly reasonable to deal with the initial complaint informally. They fucked up then ran away. Such inspiring figures - you're welcome to them.

 

[Trotsky007]

Actually despite being a member of the faction I was glad it was defeated. If it had won Smith would have been back as a full member at the start of this year. In answer to Trotsky007, Smith was definitely hounded out of the party. A bloody good job too as I don't think we'd have coped with a panel hand-picked by RS21 deciding not to expel him (unlikely, but not inconceivable).

Come on Trappist be real. Of course the faction had lost the argument in the party and this was clear by that point. In fact the proposal by the idoop faction to have a CC with lots of its members wasn't even unanimously supported by its members (me included). So it was more of a final F*** you than a concrete proposal we thought we would win. That said, if they had won then Smith would have been disciplined, the facts would have been heard and he would have been expelled. To say otherwise shows that you don't know what he did. In fact I think there may have been a few posts on this thread about it that perhaps you might like to read.........

He wasn't hounded out - he left before he could be disciplined and so ran away from justice. I had a low view of the man by that point but that just showed he knew he was going to lose. Why else would you resign if you thought you were innocent and had nothing to fear?

 

[Trappist]

Sorry 007, you're talking about the Rebuilding the Party Faction. The IDOOP faction called for Smith to be suspended for two years. An appalling prospect, and quite unprincipled. He did indeed resign before he could be disciplined (by a panel approved by RS21). I don't think the outcome of the hearing wouldn't have been expulsion, merely that wasn't guaranteed result.

What I mean to say is these things are never certain. To illustrate that mundane point - I've been a rep on enough workplace disciplines to know better than to predict what the outcome will be. I've had people given warnings for the most egregious behaviour and sacked for trivial offences.

It's true I don't know what Smith did. Actually, other than the headline accusations, the details are remarkably hard to find. Maybe I missed that post, I know I found this forum relatively late, please enlighten me.

 

[belboid]

I never fucked up, nor did I cover anything up. Speaking of which, why don't you have a word with Pat Stack who'll no doubt tell you there was no rape (his finding, not mine), or Hannah Dee who thought it was perfectly reasonable to deal with the initial complaint informally. They fucked up then ran away. Such inspiring figures - you're welcome to them.

lol. They fucked up, but then recognised they'd fucked up and tried to makes amends. And you are slating them for that while remaining alongside the people who did everything they could to defend Smith? Unbelievable.

You, you claim to be one of the small number of faction members who chose to stay in the party. You will happily sit alongside the Bowlers et al, who tried desperately to keep Smith in. Even when more facts came out, after the first (Stack attended) hearing. You claim to be a rep, so you should know how opinions change when more facts come out. Your opinion seems to have regressed tho, you seem to think that it was just a case of Smith being a bad egg, but that everything else was dandy. Or, if it wasn't dandy, it was the fault of those who complained!

You sound like if you were a member of the faction, you were only in it for one reason, and that wasn't to support it.

 

[Trappist]

Did Stack recognise he'd done wrong? I can't find where he changed his view from "conduct unbecoming" to guilty of rape. He done wrong and came to the right verdict or he done wrong and gave the wrong verdict. You tell me.

Nobody involved in this case fails to recognise how they fucked up. Some chose to distance themselves from responsibility by running away, others chose to stay and live with the consequences. Tough call either way.

 

[belboid]

Did Stack recognise he'd done wrong? I can't find where he changed his view from "conduct unbecoming" to guilty of rape. He done wrong and came to the right verdict or he done wrong and gave the wrong verdict. You tell me.

Nobody involved in this case fails to recognise how they fucked up. Some chose to distance themselves from responsibility by running away, others chose to stay and live with the consequences. Tough call either way.

Plenty pretend that nothing was done wrong. Your denial of that fact just shows how deluded you are. The only person who ran away was Smith. And here you are, pretending that the right result came out in the end, and that those who demanded a bit of justice, but failed to get it, 'ran away.' So everything is now hunky-dory in the SWP.

you're fooling nobody. Not even yourself, I suspect. Keep posting your bullshit if you like, but I guarantee you, that not one person will believe a word you say.

 

[charlie mowbray]

I certainly won't. What a pile of bullshit from Trappist. Go back to making beer.

 

[Trappist]

You sound like if you were a member of the faction, you were only in it for one reason, and that wasn't to support it.

So it's snitch-jacketing now? You are so fucking impressive!

Why is it that you're refusing to answer the questions about Stack? Not embarrassed to be in the same organisation as the “scum” who found Smith not guilty of rape are you? I'm sure he's on the mailing list, why not drop him a line to check if he's changed his mind yet?

While I'm waiting for your answer (actually I'm not as I've never seen you answer a question yet), I'll answer one of your throwaway questions from earlier.

What does it feel like to be the most hated group on the left?

There's only one day I've ever felt that. I've had some rough rides visiting picket lines – I've faced down a fascist branch sec on a post office picket and been jostled by the CP at Wapping, but by far the worst was a BA picket one Monday in May 2010 when every striker turned their backs on us as we arrived. Worst part was I couldn't argue against them, I'd have done the same if some bunch of students had invaded my pay talks. Something I never want to experience again. Maybe you can ask your RS21 comrades how it was for them and would they do it again?

Today doesn't feel so bad:

UPDATE: Jeremy Corbyn MP to speak at Refugees Welcome Here Rally: 18.30 on 4 Nov @ Camden Centre - Stand Up To Racism and Fascism

Except for all those speakers refusing to attend because of the SWP's toxic brand. Errr, none.

Or last week:

Activists rally to support victimised rep Sandy Nicoll - go all out to build solidarity

Why would anyone defend an unprincipled shark?

Or most of the year:

National Gallery strikers continue fighting privatisation and attack on their union rep

Btw, I assume you protested to your comrades about their supporting “scum” like Candy

And going forward:

John Burgess for UNISON General Secretary

Support of the SWP enthusiastically welcomed, not turned away as it would be if we were the "most hated group on the left."

 

[J Ed]

double post

 

[J Ed]

I've been on demonstrations also attended by SWP members since the Smith debacle, I haven't said anything to any of them and I have politely said no thanks to buying the Socialist Worker. I don't really see the point in being impolite to individuals in the SWP. None of this means that I enthusiastically welcome the SWP, there are a handful of decent members still but I think that your party's presence at any event is a liability, you all carry with you some serious toxicity and I wish you would go away.

 

[Nigel]

That doesn't stop the fact that the SWP is a disreputable and unintegral organisation !
Just because certain elements of the Labour left and others are too naïve or desperate not to oppose you doesn't change the fact you are an apologist for at the minimum misogynistic culture, if not apologists for rape, undemocratic regime and being completely opportunistic and centrist

 

[Trappist]

J Ed, I too wish that some groups on the left would go away. I suspect we'll both be disappointed.

Nigel, next time you see a female SWP member why not lecture her on the misogynistic organisation she's in. Be sure to have someone video her response, I could do with a laugh.

 

[J Ed]

J Ed, I too wish that some groups on the left would go away. I suspect we'll both be disappointed.

Name some names then

 

[Trappist]

Name some names then

Now that would be sectarian of me.

Though, like you, I've occasionally been surprised to find good socialists amongst the dross. Yes even in the Sparts! The only group I found irredeemably bad was the RCP and that was probably because I only met a few of them. But I got my wish as they seem to have disappeared.

 

[butchersapron]

Just read the last few pages - the bloke at the centre of the ISN related complaint is the one i warned about a few years back, and the same one who was known locally for "wandering hand syndrome" (shudders when looks at title of piece) - i mentioned that on here 2 and a half years ago.

(Btw the supporting statement from Kaff on the original piece wasn't me, just need to point that out as i'm in the same city and some of you know i used to use that name on articles).

 

[Nigel]

J Ed, I too wish that some groups on the left would go away. I suspect we'll both be disappointed.

Nigel, next time you see a female SWP member why not lecture her on the misogynistic organisation she's in. Be sure to have someone video her response, I could do with a laugh.

I have !
It's usually an embarrassing shrug, followed by unjustifiable excuses and the claim that is was 'a long time ago' !

 

[Trappist]

I have !
It's usually an embarrassing shrug, followed by unjustifiable excuses and the claim that is was 'a long time ago' !

Strewth, how we miss Julie Waterson!

 

[Nigel]

Strewth, how we miss Julie Waterson!

You can say a lot about Julie Waterson, but there is no reason to suggest that she wouldn't stand up against the outrageous way the majority of the now leadership of the SWP performed and acted over the whole Comrade Delta scenario. Although on a personal level I thought she was alright and she definitely had the convictions of her politics; even though misguided and to say the least not integral. However no great fan of hers. However I would like to thin that even someone like Julie Waterson would have had the conviction of her principles to stand up to, oppose the misogynistic bullshit that was going on by party loyalists.

 

[charlie mowbray]

Not convinced she would have. I well remember her foul bullying behaviour when the SWP parachuted late in the day into the Mumia Abu Jamal Defence Committee, when it sniffed out that we were arranging a demo, (they swiftly left as quickly after the demo when they had somehow thought they had built the party through this!). And to be frank some of the most bullying members I've encountered were Lyndsey German and John Rees (now out of the SWP and in Counterfire). Not convinced they would have rebelled against others in the SWP bureaucracy either.

 

[Bakunin]

Not convinced she would have. I well remember her foul bullying behaviour when the SWP parachuted late in the day into the Mumia Abu Jamal Defence Committee, when it sniffed out that we were arranging a demo, (they swiftly left as quickly after the demo when they had somehow thought they had built the party through this!). And to be frank some of the most bullying members I've encountered were Lyndsey German and John Rees (now out of the SWP and in Counterfire). Not convinced they would have rebelled against others in the SWP bureaucracy either.

I've had the unrivalled joy of being harangued by Waterson as well, back in the day. Can't say one way or the other as to whether she'd have opposed the bureaucracy over this issue so I won't speculate in either way, but but being harangued about not doing enough when I was one of the most active local members was a less-than-motivating experience.

 

[J Ed]

Maxine Bowler once tried to hand me a leaflet, I politely declined and judging by her reaction you'd have thought I'd just pissed in her pocket or something. I can't imagine having to deal with her on an extended basis.

 

[Trappist]

Bless.

 

[comrade spurski]

Bless.

Do you actually remember that a woman was actually treated really badly within a personal sexual relationship by a leading member of the swp ( if you decide not to believe her testimony ) or was raped (if you chose to believe it) ... cos your disgusting cuntish behaviour suggests that her pain is just a fucking joke.
You and other cunts CHOSE not to believe her...and continue to do so
She had no choice ... that's why any decent person is appalled at Delta's behaviour and the behaviour of the disciplinary committee (made up of his FRIENDS ) and those who defended and continue to defend the swp stance.

The reaction of the swp was not a political mistake ... it was as self serving and sickening as the cover ups and lack of action inall of the other political and celebrity cases...actually it was worse cos the swp are supposed to be socialists.

you are a fucking appalling human (judging by your disgraceful behaviour on here) being let alone a trade unionist and socialist.

just stop with the playing down of rape and if you can't then fuck off else where