discokermit
Well-Known Member
what sort of a person needs tranquillisers in an sp meeting?
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I know, but try telling some of them that, it's like talking to Rik Mayall in The Young Ones.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Mean!
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I feel a bit bad really cos this whole ketamine thing has derailed the thread, but in a sort of circular way it was kind of relevant:
That whole fucking meeting was a nightmare from the get go, even before we organised it. We knew we had to have a meeting on Marxist-Feminist stuff because it was the main issue on campus at the start of last year, driven I think mainly by the collapse of the SWSS kids group and also just a host of issues around rape, sexual abuse, sexism and feminism. It was like an issue for a brief period, you'd keep meeting freshers saying stuff like "I heard the SP are sexist cos they're only interested in class and they're like the SWP" so we had to attempt some way of explaining why Marxists approach sexism differently to liberals etc. But the atmosphere at the time was so bad that nobody wanted to speak. Some of the more confident female members who would usually be happy addressing a meeting just refused because it was just such a charged issue, with privilege checking kind of exploding for a very brief period beyond the small groups that talk that kind of language, and there was just no way a male speaker could have even tried (not that I'm suggesting one should have, since that would have created even more problems).So we ended up having to get an outside speaker who wasn't really able to judge the mood at the time and shit like that, and while I think honestly given how edgy everybody was beforehand it went ok and most people stayed pretty calm, it didn't feel productive. I suppose as far as I could tell none of the students who weren't already involved in other political groups left thinking we were hideous abuse apologists and at least got the thrust of where we come from politically so not a total loss but still a bizarre circumstance and one I haven't experienced before or since.
I was just wondering, has anyone else had trouble organising meetings or events on similar lines because of a generalised sense of suspicion towards the left on gender issues?
That whole fucking meeting was a nightmare from the get go, even before we organised it. We knew we had to have a meeting on Marxist-Feminist stuff because it was the main issue on campus at the start of last year, driven I think mainly by the collapse of the SWSS kids group and also just a host of issues around rape, sexual abuse, sexism and feminism. It was like an issue for a brief period, you'd keep meeting freshers saying stuff like "I heard the SP are sexist cos they're only interested in class and they're like the SWP" so we had to attempt some way of explaining why Marxists approach sexism differently to liberals etc. But the atmosphere at the time was so bad that nobody wanted to speak. Some of the more confident female members who would usually be happy addressing a meeting just refused because it was just such a charged issue, with privilege checking kind of exploding for a very brief period beyond the small groups that talk that kind of language, and there was just no way a male speaker could have even tried (not that I'm suggesting one should have, since that would have created even more problems).So we ended up having to get an outside speaker who wasn't really able to judge the mood at the time and shit like that, and while I think honestly given how edgy everybody was beforehand it went ok and most people stayed pretty calm, it didn't feel productive. I suppose as far as I could tell none of the students who weren't already involved in other political groups left thinking we were hideous abuse apologists and at least got the thrust of where we come from politically so not a total loss but still a bizarre circumstance and one I haven't experienced before or since.
I was just wondering, has anyone else had trouble organising meetings or events on similar lines because of a generalised sense of suspicion towards the left on gender issues?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Why are you asking? Is it relevant?
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
yes. the fledgling ISN plus assorted internet feminists tried to shut down the first spring conference we organised in Manchester as we didn't have enough female speakers. there was a gender disparity it is true, but despite great pains to explain that we had just been unlucky with the female speakers we'd invited (all of whom were busy or unwilling) and that we had had to publicise the event with the people we had (two full time restaurant workers in Manc just basically pulling together what we could out of our existing contacts) they pressured almost half of our panellists to drop out.
in the end both the gender ratio and the political content of the conference was far better for their absence, but the intention to destroy the thing was there.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Whose spring conference was this? LU?
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
You plum - if they had been discussing Palestine or Papuan child abuse you might have a point, but do you really think we don't need to address sexism etc? Plus the SP are ineffective but you can't deny they prioritise all those things you listed
Direlectics
New Member
what's wrong with taking k in my spare time? id left the meeting. and dont you think its better to challenge politics you find objectionable? at least it gets discussion going.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
And did you challenge politics you find objectionable with some different politics that were much nicer?
Do you find most SP politics objectionable or just the stuff around Hedley?
Why is the only SP meeting you would ever come to this one?
As I said before, the sad thing was that there was no discussion, just a lot of finger pointing led by a member of the AWL, an organisation which has certainly dealt with issues around domestic and sexual violence in a far more contemptible manner than the SP. When members responded, there was nothing really - no clear insight into how it could have been dealt with better, just a lot of mumbling about how the left is shit and everything is shit and we don't know what to do about it beyond turning up to a meeting and having a go at some young full timer who was caught out a bit by a difficult situation in which she was trying to do a good job. Even worse, not one of the people who turned up to have a go had any of the understanding of the fact that, if Hedley is guilty, he is the AGS of the RMT and may soon be the GS, and that if so-called Socialist activists are really horrified that the SP refused to condemn him automatically, it should follow that they are far more concerned about the RMT and the investigative process they followed in deciding he had no case to answer.
There's nothing wrong with taking K in your spare time if that's what you want to do. But you must understand that taking K means people will take you less seriously, even if you think that's oppressive and uncool, man. Ever seen somebody take a pub drunk's political opinion seriously? No. Same goes for Ket - sorry mate.
PS Sorry Palace are having a shit start to the season - were you disappointed to see Pulis go?
Direlectics
New Member
I disagree with a lot of the politics but the Hedley stuff is a bit beyond the pail. At least don't invite the fucker to chat shit at your annual socialism thing.
No fan of the AWL or RMT either, if that makes you feel better. But this whole 'lots of other lefties are sexist too' excuse doesn't really wash. It's not something I want to ostracize the sp over, whatever I think of it it's no comrade delta. But it's something that should be challenged because trot sects are too busy patting themselves on the back over their class politics that they utterly fail to engage properly with gender issues.
not arsed about being taken seriously when I'm on ket. that's why I stopped the serious political discussion that was happening.
Nice try
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Now, see, issue is we had three RMT members speaking already, the RMT had just declared he had no case to answer, he was saying he was starting legal proceedings about libel and stuff, and he asked if he could speak in a particular session. Now, yes you can refuse, but then you need to be in a position to say that the investigation the RMT held was unsatisfactory in some way; ie challenge the leadership of the RMT on the issue as oppose to SH. Obviously, if there is no evidence to suggest the process they went through was illegitimate, then that leaves you on shaky ground, especially if you're considering embarking on a political debate with the RMT leadership at what is kind of supposed to be a fundraising/recruitment/educational/social event. When SH was accused and resigned, we lost a lot of inside knowledge of the RMT exec, because he was pissed off we weren't prepared to defend him. Our problem is we don't have access to the information to do much about it.
The broader point is; if the feeling is that association with SH is beyond the pale, then are people suggesting we just assume that the RMT investigation was flawed and wrong, and cease association with leaders in the union (and probably therefore with a large layer of RMT members, or that there should be a campaign for the RMT to discipline Hedley, or that actually it doesn't matter if a wife beater is a leader of a union as long as he gets banned from fucking Socialism?
Actually that's not what I'm saying in regard to the AWL; I'm saying at least we've been open about what decisions have been taken and why and we're not hypocrites. But hang about, what is your criticism of the RMT? Do you think they've failed in some way?
Well, thanks for not wanting to ostracise us
and for the recognition that the two are not comparable cases. Actually what we wanted to use the meeting for was to try to outline a materialist understanding of how class systems produce sexism and homophobia - the two are linked, and in my opinion you can't engage properly with sexism (or 'gender issues' if you prefer) if you don't engage with the class system and the mode of production.Sorry, I'll rephrase - when you're re-telling the story of how you challenged the SP's politics and then afterwards you spoke to some of them but you didn't wanna talk politics then cos you were on ket, they may make certain judgements about the validity of your politics.
Haha, I'll get there
Love Urban guessing games. Or maybe I won't actually, are you just a background lurker or would I know your name? Either way, stick around now you're here, some of the other threads are actually worth reading.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Funnily enough one of the mums down at the playgroup said exactly the same thing to me the other day...
"...those cunts in the SPEW" she snarled at me before stirring yet another crushed up horse tanquiliser into her rapidly cooling skinny latte.
I wished I'd never raised the issue of childcare costs with her.
Direlectics
New Member
actually lold
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
We face a lot of anger. Only last week I was in my local and while Dave and Bill were doing a few lines off the bar and chasing them down with Mandy and Eggy was dusting his pickled egg with PCP, Old Arthur started screaming at me, he were saying "Oi, SPEW cunt, you can fuck right off". Well, he was for a bit, and then the acid kicked in and he just sort of started staring at his hands. Rita the barmaid agreed with him though, she said "You've gotta admit, he's gotta point, you SPEWERS should consider whether your structures are fuckin' adequate. How do you think that makes you look before the class?". Mind you, she's taking speed to get through the late shifts and makes her a bit aggressive like.
typical SP the only woman in the room is the one serving drinks
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I don't know if this really belongs here, but what on earth are the Irish SWP playing at?
http://www.swp.ie/content/people-profit-announce-tallaght-election-candidate
This is the second time this year they've stood against Paul Murphy.
http://www.swp.ie/content/people-profit-announce-tallaght-election-candidate
This is the second time this year they've stood against Paul Murphy.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Yeah SpackleFrog the working class have the right to choose which Trot sect they're gonna ignore dammit!
...yeah, I know they do actually elect them in Ireland but why let facts get in the way of a sarcky dig eh?
flypanam
Sausage to fortune
Since the ULA fell apart there is no agreement not to stand against one another, afaik. Can't pin this one on the SWP (Ireland) I'm afraid. Both organisations and their respective fronts PBP and AAA need their heads knocked to a degree.
Limerick Red
Мы вас похороним!
Murphy will be a shoe in, no? Don't see an issue looking for his second preferences and building their candidates profile in the area.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Seventh in 2011, 5.2% of the vote. If they lose, it'll all be down to the SWP.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
There's only one seat up for grabs and Sinn Fein will win by a mile. However in a general election it is a 5 seater and there's definitely a far left (I.e. further left of Sinn Fein) seat for the taking. Paul is the highest profile left candidate who got a good vote in the constituency in the European elections. The hope is to get a good vote for Paul to put him in a strong position for the general election.
Paul's campaign has been up and running for a month. The SWP have declared with about a month before the by election. Now, the SWP/PBPA can run where they like but people on the left are entitled to draw conclusions about their real reasons for doing so.
Generally lefts don't stand against sitting lefts in Ireland. The exception to this rule is the SWP/PBPA. The decision to stand a candidate in the Euros was to build a profile to stand against a sitting left TD (MP) in the General Election. In the local elections the SWP/PBPA ran against sitting SP councillors in Mulhuddert in Dublin West. I'm told they ran in Tipperary where another left group the Tipperary Workers Unemployed Action Group who have a number of councillors and were hoping to gain more. Basically the SWP/PBPA have declared war on the rest of the left in Ireland.
Longstanding observers of the SWP here will know that when they decide to do something particularly sectarian they are normally smart enough to have some sort of bag carriers on board (variously at different times Labour lefts, Socialist Resistance, etc) to give the illusion of cooperation. They seem to have dispensed completely with that method in Ireland for a kamikaze mission.
There's no love lost for the Irish SP with the rest of the left in Ireland but the SWP are increasingly regarded as an out and out menace. Personally I think they've lost the plot completely, even on their own terms.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Nobody's talking about a holy right. But Paul announced in July. The SWP announced yesterday. Two Socialist organisations standing against each other makes the whole effort pointless.
Just because they're not part of the same electoral front doesn't mean they can't communicate or avoid clashes.
No, he won't be a shoo-in/shoe-in. But he is a relatively high profile candidate and there was a chance to secure a 3rd Socialist TD or at least get a decent vote to build on. That won't happen now.
Is the same reasoning on display here? You'll possibly know more than me Leyton, have we made any attempts to contact them and avoid clashes at the general election?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
To be honest I wouldn't mind so much if we didn't have a situation where in Britain the SWP is basically largely disinterested in TUSC and insists that elections aren't really important, yet in Ireland they seem determined that there should be two Socialist candidates fighting for every seat.
Similar threads
